[AT] Carbon Arc Welder

szabelski at wildblue.net szabelski at wildblue.net
Wed Dec 16 18:03:03 PST 2020 

Putting the weed burner under it while you drank lunch was a good thing to do. One of the key things in welding or brazing cast iron is to not let it cool too fast. I’ve heard that the proper thing to do is heat everything cherry red, do your weld/braze, then cover with warm sand to force a slow cool down.

Carl


----- Original Message -----
From: Cecil Bearden <crbearden at copper.net>
To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
Sent: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 20:12:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [AT] Carbon Arc Welder

I bought an old carbon arc torch 50 years ago at a garage sale. I think 
it was an attachment for the old multi-port Forney welders.  ( I have 3 
of those) At the time I had a big old Craftsman welder that stood about 
3 ft tall and about a 12 x 18 footprint.  It went to 250 amps and had 
about 24 heats.  I digress....   Anyway I had a pinion cage on a 
Rockwell truck axle in a truck that I had scheduled for auction.  It was 
Friday morning the auction was Saturday.  The pinion cage was in 7 
pieces.  I cleaned them all up with solvent then used the cutting torch 
to burn off all the oil hitting the oxy lever every once in a while to 
really burn off the oil.    hooked up the Carbon arc torch and It had 
about 20 rods with it.  It was the first time I had used one, but back 
then I could do damn near anything....  I had some 1/8 bronze rod and a 
cup of flux.  I brazed all those pieces together.  It was  the easiest 
brazing job I had ever done on cast iron.   I think that carbon torch 
got the entire piece hot and kept it that way for a while.  I set a big 
propane weed burner under it while I went for a sandwich and a beer ( 
actually in those days it was a couple of 6 packs. ) .   When I got back 
I turned the torch off and let it cool.  I did a little grinding with a 
drill and stone in the bearing nose, and put the bearings in it, then 
assembled the rear end.  By 7pm it was driving.  At 7 the next morning I 
drove it 75 miles to the auction and came home with a check...   I had 
to drive the truck home for the buyer to show his son how to shift it.  
It was a pancake cab GMC with 238 Detroit and 12 spd Spicer.     I saw 
the buyer about 10 years later and he said that truck had been all over 
Western OK hauling a D6 for about 8 years and he had sold it to another 
farmer who had it on a grain trailer..  I asked him if he ever had any 
trouble with it and he said the engine just used oil was all, but since 
it was a Detroit, it was no big deal....

That sold me on brazing cast with a Carbon arc torch.

Cecil

On 12/16/2020 6:25 PM, Dennis Johnson wrote:
> I had one of those I got with money I made when I had a paper route in junior high school. I used to a little for brazing. Not sure I still have it - think it burnt when a shed I had caught on fire.
> Thee were neat little units.
>
> My favorite welder bolt is a Thermal Arc 3 in 1 that does mig, stick, and tig.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Dec 14, 2020, at 9:06 AM, szabelski at wildblue.net wrote:
>>
>> I have an old Montgomery Ward 120V welder that I purchased as my very first welder. Used it primarily for doing simple small weld jobs. It’s a simple small box, about 1 cubic foot. It has an aluminum tube on the end of one cable that serves to hold the welding rod using a simple thumb screw. The other has a typical spring loaded clamp with an aluminum tube on the handle of the clamp opposite where the cable is attached. The neat thing is that you can insert the one rod holder into the other handle of the spring clamp. Then using two copper clad carbon rods that are about 1/4 inch in diameter, adjust the distant between the two carbon rods to create a flame that will literally melt steel. The only draw back is that as the carbon rods burn you have to readjust the distance as the flame reduces. The rods would last for about 10 minutes before becoming too short to work. Haven’t used it in probably 40 to 50 years and don’t know if the carbon rods can be obtained for it anymore. It was great for heating nuts that I wanted to remove without spending a lot of time and effort. Got them cherry red real fast. I also used it to heat metal when I wanted to bend something. I could get the area where I wanted the bend cherry red, and bend it by hand without using any tools as long as I had enough material to grab with a gloved hand. Had to be careful with small pieces since once or twice I started to melt what I was trying to bend. Now that I think about it, I may drag it out of the basement and play with it a little.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Cecil Bearden <crbearden at copper.net>
>> To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
>> Sent: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 21:31:44 -0500 (EST)
>> Subject: Re: [AT] Update: '47 B - First starting attempt
>>
>> I have welded with propane and light gauge wire.  The worst thing about
>> using my propane torch to weld with is it is a rather big flame and
>> heats a larger area than I wold need for welding.   I have one of the
>> old Dillon Torches that I can use for the really fine stuff, but again
>> it uses acetylene.   Propane oxy will get hot enough to free up bolts,
>> castings, etc...
>>
>> Cecil
>>
>>> On 12/13/2020 7:47 PM, Dean VP wrote:
>>> Every time I see a Mig Welder for sale I get tempted badly.  But the only ones I'm interested in are more than $700 and I just can't justify spending that much on a tool I use seldomly.  I do have  a stick welder and an Acetylene set up but the stick welder is actually used for welding and the Acetylene setup is mostly used for heating stubborn bolts and studs.  I have some sheet metal such as hoods that could use a Mig Welder but I'm just having trouble pulling the trigger on one. I am surprised that Propane has become so popular with your needs.  I've always thought is didn't get hot enough for our antique tractor work.  If it does I'm willing to invest in some propane tips, etc. Would propane work on welding my hoods?
>>>
>>>
>>> Dean VP
>>> Apache Junction, AZ
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of Cecil Bearden
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2020 5:00 PM
>>> To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Update: '47 B - First starting attempt
>>>
>>> Since I got a Mig welder I haven't used acetylene for welding in over 10 years.   I do some brazing on Cast iron or real thin metal sometimes, and I use my cutting torch.  It is an old Rego 70deg straight cutter with a propane tip.    I keep a couple of acetylene bottles around, but don't use them unless I have to have extreme heat such as a rosebud tip...  I learned to braze with propane using the cutting torch and cutting with propane, and I prefer propane for cutting....
>>>
>>> Just my $0.02
>>> Cecil
>>>
>>>> On 12/13/2020 4:52 PM, Dean VP wrote:
>>>> Steve,
>>>>
>>>> Good progress getting the 47B running. I'm assuming the hole in the
>>>> manifold is on the exhaust side of the manifold. I doubt it would run
>>>> at all if it was the intake side. So....  does it really matter if it makes a little
>>>> extra noise temporarily?  Or just press something in there until later?   If
>>>> it was on the intake side then I'm surprised you got it running.   Now
>>>> relative to removing the nuts on the studs for the manifold.  Keep in
>>>> mind that even after removal of the nuts the studs will still have to
>>>> be removed to get the manifold off the head without having to remove
>>>> everything above the manifold such as the fan shaft gas tank and hood.
>>>> If you try to remove the  studs while the manifold is still on the risk of twisting them off is
>>>> even higher than you might want to have.    Some people have been known to
>>>> lift the manifold up enough so that the studs can be cutoff high
>>>> enough for later removal and still be able to remove the manifold
>>>> without removing everything above it.  But drilling out the studs and
>>>> getting the remaining studs out while the head is still on is a real
>>>> PITA.  If you can get the nuts off without twisting the studs off and
>>>> the studs look pretty good I would recommend removing everything above the manifold.
>>>>
>>>>    But.... Sometimes it requires removing the radiator too to slide the
>>>> fan shaft forward enough out of the governor to get it out.  In any of
>>>> the options you are looking at a lot of work to change the manifold.
>>>> Or pull the head and manifold out together and work on the combination
>>>> on the bench which is what I did on my 1935 JD B.  The reason I took
>>>> that route was two-fold. I knew the manifold bolts were going to twist
>>>> off since they had been in there for 75 years AND the compression test
>>>> results had shown a difference of 55 vs 63 psi. I wanted to see what
>>>> was causing that.  Turns out it was a good decision as I found valves
>>>> not seating properly due to valve guides that were in really bad
>>>> shape.  The Valves themselves were like new. A PO had been in this engine recently.  Before you make any decisions
>>>> .... price out what ever gaskets you might need.    I was blown away by the
>>>> current cost of gaskets. The head gasket alone cost $79 for the 35 B.
>>>>
>>>> You made a couple comments that I hope are totally unrelated. I assume
>>>> since you are in cold country you were draining condensation out of
>>>> the crankcase oil that had not been caused your radiator to be low on coolant.
>>>>
>>>> BTW,   be a little careful how much pressure you put on the manifold stud
>>>> nuts since the studs may be rusted thin.  On my situation I wanted to
>>>> try to save the studs because I knew they were going to be broken off
>>>> on removal so I went out of the  way to avoid twisting them off by
>>>> using an air driven die grinder to cut off the sides of the nuts
>>>> without ruining the threads and then used a chisel to break off what
>>>> was left of the nuts. That worked as I saved all 4 studs. But when I
>>>> got the manifold off the studs were in such bad shape they have to be
>>>> replaced anyway.  The borrowed shop I am working in does not have an
>>>> acetylene welding setup to heat and cool the studs so I had to farm out their removal which is costing me an arm and a leg if they
>>>> twist off.   Which I would predict there will be a 99% chance of happening.
>>>> At home I would have talked them myself.  The owner of the shop I'm
>>>> working on is downsizing and the Acetylene torch was on the get rid of list. In my
>>>> shop it would be close to near the last thing I got rid of.   But he does
>>>> mostly cosmetic restations on N Series Fords and Fergusons.  He had a
>>>> friend who did all his welding. I don't weld much with mine but it is
>>>> used often for "convincing" duties.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck with you project and keep us informed with your progress.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dean VP
>>>> Apache Junction, AZ
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of STEVE ALLEN.
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2020 2:08 PM
>>>> To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>>> Subject: [AT] Update: '47 B - First starting attempt
>>>>
>>>> It has been a while!  My wife is slowly recovering from her broken
>>>> leg/ankle, and I am able to get outside the house a little more these days.
>>>>
>>>> So today, though it is chilly and misty, the older boy and I got out and
>>>> finished prep on the B.   We began my mounting the sediment bowl and the
>>>> fuel line.  A small snag:  the bail for the glass bowl itself wouldn't
>>>> fit because of the intake, but we selected another bail from another
>>>> bowl, and it fit.  We put in fresh plugs, adjusted the wires, and
>>>> fitted the new mag cap.  We drained a little bit of water out of the
>>>> crankcase, topped off the oil, and put a gallon of coolant in to bring
>>>> the level up higher.  We temporarily stole the battery off the '49 A
>>>> and hooked it up.  We put in some gas, and the moment of truth was at hand.
>>>>
>>>> We cranked some while playing with the choke, and it popped but
>>>> wouldn't catch.  We pulled the plugs out to see if it was flooding,
>>>> but there was some carbon crap on them.  We cleaned them off and cranked some more.
>>>>
>>>> The pops became continuous:  he was running!
>>>>
>>>> I spent some time playing with the idle and power needle, working to
>>>> dial the carb in a bit, but the cold was against me, and we ran out of
>>>> the gas we had put in before I had them figured out, but we can't be too far off.
>>>>
>>>> We found one definite problem:  the manifold has a hole in it :-(
>>>> It's about a 1/4' wide and 1/2" long on the inside of the curve on the
>>>> flywheel side of the tractor.  So we're going to find out if the
>>>> anti-seize I put on the stud threads all those years ago worked ;-)
>>>> Off course, we'll clean them up and heat them first!
>>>>
>>>> In the meantime, I wonder if I can contrive to put a temporary plug in
>>>> place with JB weld, at least long enough to be able to move (after we
>>>> put the battery box/seat and platform back on) out of the shed so we
>>>> can do something about the floor.  Has anybody had any luck with such a project?
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I was not convinced he'd start today, but he did, and that
>>>> makes me happy.  We have more work to do, but we can be fairly certain
>>>> it won't be wasted effort now.
>>>>
>>>> A Good Tractor Day!
>>>>
>>>> The "original" Steve Allen
>>>>
>>>>
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