[AT] AT Digest, Vol 27, Issue 13

deanvp at att.net deanvp at att.net
Tue Apr 14 23:18:57 PDT 2020


Steve,

Yes, what is necessary is to remove stuff around the brake components so you can get to the parts that are stuck.   The brake drum should slide off of the brake pads so that you get the drum and big shaft off.  Can you get the brake linings to move in and out when you move the brake pedal back and forth. If so then you want to have the brake pedal in the position where it puts no pressure on the brake drums.  Then the drum should slide off fairly easy.  But most often the  brake linings are also interfering with the drum because the adjustment mechanism is rusted tight.  So you need to get the drum off with the shaft out by doing what you need to do to free the linings from the drum.  You can't get to what is rusted stuck until you get the drum off.  Kind of a catch 22. Can you get anything between the linings and drum to break them loose?  I hate to tell you this but sometimes they are so stuck to the drum that the linings become disposable. Somehow you need to be able to get the linings loose enough so the shaft and drum will slip out.   Getting the pinion gear off the big shaft can be a bear at times. If the lining is stuck to the drum everything works against you.  My first way to get the gear loose is to loosen the nut until it is flush with the end of the shaft. Then I take a BFH with a plate protecting the end of the shaft and give it the biggest whack I can muster, Maybe more than one if necessary. If that doesn't work them you will have to use a puller. There is a video on the web that shows a good type of puller to use. You may have one or you may need to rent one or fabricate something. 

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OATNWzjs15g

Just remember to get everything apart from the brake assembly before you try to loosen rusted tight parts.  First remove the brake shoes. Be careful to not bend the edges of the slots at the ends of the pins. The adjusting pin  on the end of the brake pedal shaft needs to be removed and loosened up. The adjusting pins that are moved by the adjusting bolt need to be loosened and removed.  Then and only then can you try to remove the  adjuster bolt.  Yes I am saying that after heating up the casting all the way around the adjuster bolt hit the square end of the adjuster bolt with another one of those big whacks as hard as you can muster.  What you are trying to do is break the rust bond on the threads. Once you think you have done that, heat the casting all around the adjusting bolt again and then try to turn it.  If you get the casting hot enough you will be able to turn it. Once you get it to move you are on the road to home. 

Once you get the drum off of the brake linings I think you will get an immediate idea of how the brake works and the parts that need to be loosened up and then removed. Believe it or not the adjusting bolt will probably be the last item. 

In my previous comments I never thought that you might not yet have the drum and big shaft out.  All of my suggestions were worthless until that happens.  The world doesn't come to an end if you have to ruin the linings to get the drum off.   Just more work and expense. I have found that taking a lighter hammer and tapping all around the drum will sometimes break the rust bond between the drum and the linings.   If everything was rusted tight when the brake pedal was depressed and locked you could have a challenge getting them apart. The problem is you have to get them loose enough  from the drum to get the shaft out and even possibly enough play to get the big nut loose.  If pulling the brake pedal all the way back doesn't loosen them up the internal adjusting pins are also rusted.  I would expect that. Beat on the drum and make music while trying to break the linings loose from the drum. 

Hope this helps.

BTW, the next one will be a lot easier! 😊


Dean VP
Apache Junction, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of STEVE ALLEN
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 1:40 PM
To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
Subject: Re: [AT] AT Digest, Vol 27, Issue 13

Thanks heaps for the info, Dean; I really appreciate it.

To clarify a couple things:  
Yes, I have the assembly off the tractor.  I have the pedal off its shaft, and the pedal shaft is loose.  However, the brakes are still stuck tight, and I still haven't got the gear on the big shaft off.
Will I be able to remove the shaft and drum once I get the gear off even with the adjuster stuck?  With everything but the pedal shaft stuck tight still, I am not sure how I will get the main shaft/drum separated from the casting.

You are saying (I think) that hitting the adjuster on the end will actually cause it to turn some when it starts breaking free?

The gear is on there tight:  I am concerned about braking teeth as I use the gear puller.  I obviously need to get a better quality one than the one I have.  Any suggestions as to type?  That's a thick gear on a heavy shaft!

And yes, you give good advice that I should just suspect everything needs to be done.  Thing is, it is obvious somethings *have* been done.  The new idle and high speed in the carb are some examples.

Anyway, I'll keep at it!

The "original" Steve Allen

----- Original Message -----Message: 2
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 22:30:17 -0700
From: <deanvp at att.net>
To: "'Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group'"
	<at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Subject: Re: [AT] JD A Update; Quick Question
Message-ID: <003b01d61154$9e97ec90$dbc7c5b0$@att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

The wiring on a distributor is the same as a Wico C Magneto. Top goes to #1 cylinder on the flywheel side. Bottom wire to plug on pulley side.

Using jumper cables to start JD's is an exercise in futility. Put a good battery in and make sure you have good short heavy cables and connections.
All JD Two Cylinder tractors are Positive ground.  Too much power is lost in the cables and connections when using jumper cables which typically are not a big enough gauge to begin with. 

I think with what you are finding I think it would be wise to just assume everything is bad and assume nothing has been fixed recently or ever.  That will keep you from making incorrect assumptions that components should be working. 

Now to the brakes.  Do you have the brake ASSEMBLY OFF OF THE TRACOTR?
Secondly do you have the  brake shoes off and all the associated parts, especially those that contact the adjuster.  All components that contact the adjuster cone need to be removed before attempting to remove the adjuster rod.  When rotating the brake shaft do the pins slide back and forth that
apply pressure to the brake shoe?   In my experience ever single component
of the whole brake assembly needs to be individually removed and cleaned up.
But you are at least one step ahead in that the brake shaft turns that is a big step forward. Removing the brake assembly from the tractor has two advantages. !,) there is less cast iron to heat up and 2.) It is easier to work on.  I've never been able to get the adjuster to turn just using the square end of the shaft without first hitting the square end with a BF hammer while the brake casting is really hot for a long time.  Then once I can see some movement from hitting the end of the adjusting shaft the I start trying to turn the shaft. The square end is the same size as the shaft so even with a pipe wrench the moment arm isn't very good on the shaft even with a big pipe wrench.  You might try to protect the square end of the shaft with a socket but even if the end get bunged up ii is easy to clean up once you get it out.  

So ok, you have the brake casting in the vice, remember now you have added more metal mass to the brake assembly so it will take a lot of heat to get hot enough.  Heat the casting all around where the adjusting shaft goes through the casting. Heat some more further out, then around the shaft again, over and over,  Then as rapidly as you can use the big hammer on then
of the adjuster shaft to see if you can get it it to move.   Then go back and go
through the whole heating process Again and repeat the big hammer routine.
The only time you will be able to move the shaft is when it is hot.  Once you get movement just keep working the shaft trying to get penetrating oil
in there.   I've never had good luck with melted wax but some swear by it.
Just simply heating and reheating multiple times will break the rust bond
and eventually it will come loose. It sometimes takes real brute force.   If
you fail put it aside and try again another time. I have never failed but some are worse than others. 

The strange part will be when you do get everything apart and cleaned up all the parts will be so lose you will wonder why they were stuck so tight
to begin with.   I have started using anti-seize grease on the shafts that
go through the castings. It just seems to stick to stuff better than normal grease.  It sticks to anything it comes in contact with including you.
What happens are the shafts and associated openings are vents to the outside world and they tend to draw moisture from the outside world  when the tractor heats up and cools AND of course if the tractor is left outside in the elements they are the path for moisture to get inside the brake
assembly.  So they rust up big time.   On newer two cylinder tractors JD put
"O" rings around those shafts to block some of that potential for moisture
getting in.   #1 rule is don't leave the tractor outside in the weather. 

Just remember you may have to be the meanest, baddest mechanic in the area to break things loose. I have never broken a casting and I have run into a
few really bad ones.   I tend to do several brake assemblies at a time
because then I remember exactly what has worked and not worked.  Usually it
is more heat.   It will not be fun until you get them loose then you will
feel a real sense of accomplishment.  Anticipate severe cases of frustration.  Good Luck.

Dean VP
Apache Junction, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of STEVE ALLEN
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 8:59 PM
To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
Subject: [AT] JD A Update; Quick Question

Fellows, here's an update on the A and a question.

My son and I spent much of the afternoon of Easter Vigil working on the A.
The battery is just about one step on a scale of 100 above dead, but I put it in, and we made an attempt to start.

I put some gas in and opened up the valve on the sediment bowl, hooked up the jumper cables to my pickup, turned on the key, gave him a bit of throttle and choke, and hit the starter.  He turns over, stiffly.  That's the battery, I'm sure.  The starter sounds fine, just isn't getting good oompf.

No fire.  I decided to reduce to load on the starter and opened the cylinder cocks.  The right side sprayed gas out in a stream.  Well.  obviously, the gas is running straight into the cylinder.  Two things:  the valve on the sediment bowl was leaking gas in even when it was closed, and the needle-and-seat were not stopping the gas in the carb bowl.  I know the float is OK because I checked it.  So I pulled the seat fitting out, and, sure enough, the needle has a groove around it and no gasket under it.  #1 Next item on the purchase list:  Needle and seat.  The "new" shut-off valve needs to be replaced, too:  I can only get it to shut off and not drip by really cranking down on it.  The ancient one on my other A shuts off reliably with just a little pressure.  Of, course, the new one is metric in its outer dimensions, so I can guess where it was made.  #2 Next item on the purchase list:  a higher quality shut-off valve for the sediment bowl.

Meanwhile, I had my son clean up the connections on the coil and the ignition switch.  Pulled the coil wire off the coil, and the end was badly corroded.  When we tested for spark by pulling the right plug and grounding it against a cleaned spot on the frame, we got one spark but only one.  This may be why.  and when he tried to clean it, the metal contact broke.  #3 Next item on the purchase list:  new coil wire.  #4 next item, then I will probably get a new set of points while I am at it.  Oh, and a battery.  #5.

Now, here's my question:  I told my son to pull the plug wires of the distributor to see if their ends were OK.  They are, but he can't remember which one was on top and which the bottom.  My other A has a mag, so I know which ones go where on it, but I don't know about the distributor.  Right or left on top?  Good lesson for him--and a reminder to me not to assume he knows more than he does.

Anyway, we also spent a long time on the brake.  I got the pedal off, and the pedal shaft seems to be free, but the adjuster is still stuck tight.  I got that iron nice and orange (got a rental bottle of acetylene) but no dice yet.  I pulled the nut off the shaft and am working on the gear with a puller.  Crank down, whack the puller with a hammer, crank a little more.  I am leaving it under tension overnight.  I am not sure that it is moving, but I keep at it.

I was hoping not to have to do the electrolysis because I will have to clean up the machined surfaces very good very quickly to prevent a worse problem, and I want to get the gear off first, if possible, but I am running out of options.

I was told when I bought this tractor that it ran recently and was gone through by a feller that does quality work and really takes care of his equipment.  I begin to suspect that the story is embellished. . . .  I absolutely prefer JDs, but I almost wish I'd spent the money on the 8N the guy in town has for sale.  It runs.

Well, it's good experience for my son even if it frustrates me not to be working WITH it yet but still working ON it.

The "original" Steve Allen
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