[AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle Program
Cecil Bearden
crbearden at copper.net
Thu Sep 19 19:55:42 PDT 2019
I agree with the analysis that the bolts were stretching, instead of the
head shrinking. However, this was the late 60's early 70's and there
probably was a lot lost in the translation between Japan and Oklahoma
Via Dallas.. I helped to write some of the service manuals in the early
days as I had more hands on experience with Satoh tractors in the US
than any other mechanic, and I also had experience with writing
technical manuals.
Cecil
On 9/19/2019 9:06 PM, Jim Becker wrote:
> I still think that before Satoh wrote a service bulletin about the
> head shrinking because of overheating, somebody there would have done
> before and after measurements and be able to tell the difference
> between a head squishing out of spec and a stretched bolt.
>
> Jim Becker
>
> -----Original Message----- From: szabelski at wildblue.net
> Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 7:51 PM
> To: Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group
> Subject: Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle Program
>
> My guess is that when the engine overheats the head expands and gets
> thicker (standard thermo dynamics). When it expands it stretches the
> head bolts, all of them. As a result it would appear that the head got
> thinner.
>
> Finding all the head bolts loose, one might guess that’s the head
> shrunk uniformally from the overheating. If the head shrinks every
> time it overheats, one should eventually see a head that is getting
> noticeably thinner and thinner.
>
> Note that when the bolts are stretched the bolt shanks get a little
> thinner. If they get too thin they will not hold the required torque,
> and will loosen up easier. This is due to the fact that a bolt that is
> too thin will twist easier without applying the expected clamping force.
>
> When we serviced military equipment that required a high torque on
> certain bolts, we always replaced those bolts with new ones before
> applying any torque. Torquing a bolt does stretch it and you can only
> stretch a bolt so far before it no longer will clamp properly. Not
> knowing how many times a specific bolt was torqued, or if it was ever
> over torqued, made it necessary to not take a chance on reusing a bolt
> that was stretched to far.
>
> We also never reused lock washers or self locking nuts since, there
> was no way of determining how many times they may have been taken off
> and put back on. They were simply replaced and we knew they were 100%
> good. When the bolts, lock washers, or self locking nuts were
> removed, they immediately went into a scrap bucket to make sure they
> didn’t make it back into the assembly.
>
> A five ton main gun slamming rearward as it comes out of battery (it’s
> mounting) due to degraded bolts will easily slice a tank commander or
> the loader, sitting basically behind it, in two, maybe both of them.
> It can also do some serious injury to the gunner sitting along side of
> it. There are also dozens of pieces of equipment mounted to the
> interior walls. If they break away and become secondary missiles, they
> can do a lot of secondary damage and injury. We and the army never
> wanted to risk that or anything else like that happening, and always
> put crew safety as our first priority. It did drive up the cost of the
> field installation kits because we had to included a replacement bolt,
> lock. washer, and nut for every one that was touched during
> maintenance, retrofit, or upgrade.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Becker <mr.jebecker at gmail.com>
> To: Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> Sent: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 16:25:28 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle Program
>
> I agree the whole head isn’t going to shrink. However, I can imagine
> the pressure from the head bolts acting on the overheated head to
> cause some displacement of the head material. When cooled back to a
> normal temperature, the dimension from where the head bolts contact
> the head to the gasket surface could be reduced. This could be
> confirmed by measurement before and after.
>
> Having not seen the actual wording of the bulletin, I could imagine it
> stating something to that effect. I would presume someone at Satoh
> made such measurements.
>
> Jim Becker
>
> From: Stephen Offiler
> Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 2:23 PM
> To: Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group
> Subject: Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle Program
>
> I don't buy that, Cecil. I don't think the head shrinks regardless of
> what the service bulletin said. I think it expands when overheated,
> putting a permanent stretch in the head bolts, resulting in
> insufficient torque when it cools down. Retorque it, then overheat it
> again, and they stretch again, and again.
>
> Steve O.
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:27 AM Cecil Bearden <crbearden at copper.net>
> wrote:
>
> Back in the early 70's when I was working at the tractor shop, we
> were the Satoh tractor dealer. The tractor had an aluminum head on a
> cast iron block w/ steel studs. we sold it to a couple of sisters who
> had been suing a Cub Farmall with a belly mower. The Satoh would get
> grass built up in the radiator and overheat. When it cooled down, the
> head would have to be re-torqued. The first couple of times we
> replaced the gasket. The last 2 times we just re-torqued the bolts.
> Later we got a service bulletin that stated the head would shrink when
> it overheated. Maybe that is the reason the rocker arm bracket gets
> loose on the Kawasaki..
>
>
> In our case the sisters filed a lawsuit and we had to go find
> another Cub Farmall to replace the one they traded in. The boss
> convinced the purchaser of the used Cub Farmall to trade for the Satoh
> that overheated and that owner was very happy as he did not mow
> Bermuda grass.
>
>
> Cecil
>
>
> On 9/18/2019 7:28 AM, Jim Becker wrote:
>
> Henry, do you also find the rocker arm bracket bolt loose when the
> push rods get bent? As Steve pointed out, it seems unlikely that
> sticky valves would result in 2 bent push rods at/near the same time.
> My knowledge of the Kawasaki V-twin consists of what I read in this
> thread. But I wonder if the failure mode is overheating allowing the
> rocker arm bracket to get loose, allowing the push rods to get loose
> and bend. Maybe the fix is to add a bend-over tab type retainer to
> the bolt.
>
> Jim Becker
>
> From: Stephen Offiler
> Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 3:44 AM
> To: Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group
> Subject: Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle
> Program
>
> Henry, is yours is a Kawasaki V-twin? Are you just replacing the
> bent pushrods? Based on the Internet chatter I've read on the lawn
> forums, the root cause is sticky valves, and the permanent solution is
> a new head (comes complete with valve guides and seats) and new
> valves. That's what I'm doing right now, reusing only the valve
> springs, keepers, and rocker arms. In my case, it wasn't even a
> question, because my head gasket was blown, so that head is certainly
> warped too.
>
> These engines are sensitive to proper cooling airflow. Again with
> the lawn forums, seems I'm far from the only one who has had an
> overheat without realizing it. Mostly it's grass clippings that cause
> the problem although mine was mouse nest. People talk about removing
> the shrouds every X hours to clean the fins. Actually a really easy
> job. The bolt holes in the main shroud are slots, you just loosen the
> fasteners and pull it straight off.
>
> SO
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 9:03 PM Henry Miller <hank at millerfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
> I've had the bent pushrod 3 times now in mine, it has always been
> both, though I too can't figure out why both should go at the same time.
>
> --
> Henry Miller
>
> hank at millerfarm.com
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, at 8:27 AM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>
> Mine is a long story. All my stories are long ;-)
>
>
> Gravely zero-turn with 24HP Kawasaki V-twin. I keep it
> maintained by the book, and use it pretty hard but not abused. It
> ends up being stored in places where mice are just going to be
> present, no way to eradicate them (and yes there are cats around).
> Quite a while ago, could have been early '18 or back even further in
> '17, I was checking the air filter (which I do roughly every 3-4 mows)
> and found it had a huge hole chewed in it. That means I probably ran
> the machine unfiltered a couple times. Suspicious and worried, I
> pulled the shrouds, and found the #1 cylinder fins just packed with
> slow-roasted mouse-nest. Most likely, I ran it a couple times with
> impaired cooling on that cylinder, and it overheated. I cleaned it
> all out and went back to mowing. It ran well, plenty of power, but I
> did notice an increase in oil consumption. I wondered if that was the
> overheating, or the ingestion of unfiltered dusty air. I didn't
> really feel like tearing it down so I just kept running it. And, with
> an eye on oil level, it did fine for 1-2 years, until just recently.
> It coughed and started running poorly. Drove it into the shop and
> found #1 was barely warm; it was only running on #2. Tore into #1 and
> found both rods bent plus the bolt holding the "Rocker arm bracket"
> was very loose. What the internet tells me is that overheat leads to
> sticky valves and when a valve sticks the pushrod gets out of place
> and bends. That sounds very plausible but I'm still not sure how I
> bent BOTH of them and how that loose rocker bracket happened. Oh and
> the head gasket is blown on that side, which probably explains the
> increased oil consumption. I am replacing the whole head, pushrods,
> valves, valve seals, gaskets. Cost about $300 in parts online.
> Waiting right now for parts to arrive and the grass is still growing.
>
>
> SO
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 8:46 AM Cecil Bearden
> <crbearden at copper.net> wrote:
>
> The only time I bent a push rod was when I over revved the
> engine. It was on a 292 Ford V-8 in an old 57 4wd F100. I got stuck
> and had to give it the gas to get out. I straightened the rod out on
> an anvil and it i still running...
>
> Cecil
>
> On 9/17/2019 6:03 AM, Henry Miller wrote:
>
> My zero turn is in the shop with the same bent pushrods
> issue. Second time this summer. I'm thinking about a different
> engine... I have the replacement rods, but I found a small spring by
> the valves that doesn't come from anywhere obvious. I'll have to tear
> into it more now to see what else is wrong.
>
>
> --
> Henry Miller
>
> hank at millerfarm.com
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 16, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>
> Mike M - that just happened to me yesterday! I've got a
> Gravely zero-turn with Kawasaki V-twin that bent a pushrod at 306
> hours (known issue, easy-ish fix). It is sitting right now waiting
> for parts to arrive. Yesterday, I was walking past and happened to
> look down and saw 600 and something hours on the meter, which was odd
> but didn't quite register until it clicked over another tenth digit
> while I was watching. That happens once every 6 minutes, so I got
> real lucky to see it. I guess the key got bumped somehow during
> disassembly Now, all the service reminders are saying "CHG NOW". I'm
> doing engine oil and air filter now anyway, but losing the service
> reminder on the hydro units bugs me. It added 337 hours sitting still
> (divide by 24 to see how long I've been waiting for parts, and
> therefore how long the grass is getting!). Since I'm not likely to
> ever sell this machine, I don't really care that much about the fake
> hours.
>
>
> Steve O.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 4:09 PM Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com>
> wrote:
>
> I have a Scag zero turn that I bought new, I put about
> 350 hours on it over the course of several years. When I parked it
> this last fall, I accidentally left the key on, so when I went to
> start it this Spring I had 3500 hours on it. Fortunately my daughter
> works at the dealer so I was able to buy a new one.
>
>
> Mike M
>
>
>
> On 9/16/2019 2:42 PM, Spencer Yost wrote:
>
> New tractors have hours embedded in the computer.
> Replacement computers are easily spotted by the metadata in the
> computer. So for approximately the last 10-15 years we have a reliable
> indicator of usage or computer replacement/tampering on most models.
>
>
> However, being able to obtain the equipment and
> software necessary to read the computer is still a sticking point and
> at the heart of the right to repair lawsuits going around. These
> lawsuits are extending to other equipment and devices. So farmers were
> actually at the forefront of this movement.
>
>
> Ok fine print for the following:
>
>
> This is not a political statement. I absolutely
> positively never endorse any presidential candidate publicly on this
> list nor should the following be construed as support for the
> candidates mentioned. I only add the following statements and link as
> a way to let y’all know that our frustrations with equipment are being
> heard by some. Ok enough with the fine print:
>
>
> Elizabeth Warren added support for the right to
> repair movement as one of her written policy planks - To my knowledge
> the only one but the movement should grow to the point candidates
> probably won’t be able to ignore it. Here’s Warren’s policy paper on
> agriculture in general but in that she specifically mentions right to
> repair:
>
>
> https://medium.com/@teamwarren/leveling-the-playing-field-for-americas-family-farmers-823d1994f067
>
>
>
> I am watching the right to repair movement closely.
>
>
> Spencer
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Al Jones
> <farmallsupera1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> No. If your tachometer goes bad, you get a new one
> with 0000.0 hours.
>
>
> Al
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 11:52 PM Cecil Bearden
> <crbearden at copper.net> wrote:
>
> Probably not, and the mileage on the title of an
> auto or truck is
>
> nothing that can be relied on... I used to be
> able to tell by the wear
>
> on floorboards, rust, paint scratches etc if a
> trucks mileage was
>
> right. Tractors are a different animal. Usually
> just change the tires
>
> and if repainted, change the hoses and belts, new
> seat and cab interior
>
> and it is a new tractor.
>
>
> Cecil
>
>
> On 9/15/2019 8:36 PM, Jack wrote:
>
> > Tractors are not titled. Automobiles and trucks
> are. When you sell an auto, you record the mileage at time of sale and
> your signature. Is it even illegal to alter the hour meter on a tractor?
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> On Behalf Of Cecil Bearden
>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2019 7:33 PM
>
> > To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
>
> > Subject: Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor
> Manufacturing Was Bicycle Program
>
> >
>
> > The New Holland Money Pit is what it is because
> somewhere in its history the hour meter was turned back. New tires
> were installed and it was made to look like a 5 yr old tractor with
> about 200 hrs per year.
>
> > Cecil
>
> >
>
> > On 9/14/2019 10:26 AM, James Peck wrote:
>
> >> Some years ago I did participate in an
> academic Statistical Quality Control course. Much of the course
> involved the Weibull Distribution. If I remember correctly, the
> Weibull Curve predicted the lifespan of a manufactured assembly such
> as a tractor. It appears to be a gift from the mathematicians.
>
> >>
>
> >>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weibull_distribution
>
> >>
>
> >> The same distribution probably predicts that
> Cecil’s New Holland money pit will continue to be so and will suffer
> an early demise.
>
> >>
>
> >> [Stephen Offiler] I never took a whole
> semester of Statistics. Instead, we had a course called Engineering
> Experimentation, which was heavy on experiment design and statistical
> data analysis. That gave me a very good appreciation for the
> practical application of statistics. Out in the real world,
> on-the-job training programs in quality control principles in
> manufacturing (Deming, Juran, Lean Six Sigma) continued to solidify
> the practical applications.
>
> >>
>
> >> [Cecil Bearden] Steve: I nearly flunked
> statistics I only passed because I was a graduating senior. However,
> I did flunk Rocks & Clods 2124 and had to find another 4 hours to
> graduate. Then 35 years later I retire as a Geotechnical engineer
> designing foundations. !!!
>
> >>
>
> >> [Stephen Offiler] I'm not sure if that is an
> interesting statistic, or simply predictable statistically. All you
> just said is that a bell-curve distribution for 2-year degrees
> overlaps a bell-curve distribution for 4-year degrees.
>
> >>
>
> >> [ James Peck] The interesting statistic is
> that some technical 2 year programs have higher starting incomes than
> many 4 year degree programs. People who complete such a program can
> later take a 2+2 program to get a four year degree if they choose.
>
> >>
>
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