[AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle Program
Cecil Bearden
crbearden at copper.net
Wed Sep 18 05:50:11 PDT 2019
Back in the early 70's when I was working at the tractor shop, we were
the Satoh tractor dealer. The tractor had an aluminum head on a cast
iron block w/ steel studs. we sold it to a couple of sisters who had
been suing a Cub Farmall with a belly mower. The Satoh would get grass
built up in the radiator and overheat. When it cooled down, the head
would have to be re-torqued. The first couple of times we replaced the
gasket. The last 2 times we just re-torqued the bolts. Later we got a
service bulletin that stated the head would shrink when it overheated.
Maybe that is the reason the rocker arm bracket gets loose on the
Kawasaki..
In our case the sisters filed a lawsuit and we had to go find another
Cub Farmall to replace the one they traded in. The boss convinced the
purchaser of the used Cub Farmall to trade for the Satoh that overheated
and that owner was very happy as he did not mow Bermuda grass.
Cecil
On 9/18/2019 7:28 AM, Jim Becker wrote:
> Henry, do you also find the rocker arm bracket bolt loose when the
> push rods get bent? As Steve pointed out, it seems unlikely that
> sticky valves would result in 2 bent push rods at/near the same time.
> My knowledge of the Kawasaki V-twin consists of what I read in this
> thread. But I wonder if the failure mode is overheating allowing the
> rocker arm bracket to get loose, allowing the push rods to get loose
> and bend. Maybe the fix is to add a bend-over tab type retainer to the
> bolt.
> Jim Becker
> *From:* Stephen Offiler
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 18, 2019 3:44 AM
> *To:* Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor Manufacturing Was Bicycle
> Program
> Henry, is yours is a Kawasaki V-twin? Are you just replacing the bent
> pushrods? Based on the Internet chatter I've read on the lawn
> forums, the root cause is sticky valves, and the permanent solution is
> a new head (comes complete with valve guides and seats) and new
> valves. That's what I'm doing right now, reusing only the valve
> springs, keepers, and rocker arms. In my case, it wasn't even a
> question, because my head gasket was blown, so that head is certainly
> warped too.
> These engines are sensitive to proper cooling airflow. Again with the
> lawn forums, seems I'm far from the only one who has had an overheat
> without realizing it. Mostly it's grass clippings that cause the
> problem although mine was mouse nest. People talk about removing the
> shrouds every X hours to clean the fins. Actually a really easy job.
> The bolt holes in the main shroud are slots, you just loosen the
> fasteners and pull it straight off.
> SO
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 9:03 PM Henry Miller <hank at millerfarm.com> wrote:
>
> I've had the bent pushrod 3 times now in mine, it has always been
> both, though I too can't figure out why both should go at the same
> time.
> --
> Henry Miller
> hank at millerfarm.com
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, at 8:27 AM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>> Mine is a long story. All my stories are long ;-)
>> Gravely zero-turn with 24HP Kawasaki V-twin. I keep it maintained
>> by the book, and use it pretty hard but not abused. It ends up
>> being stored in places where mice are just going to be present,
>> no way to eradicate them (and yes there are cats around). Quite
>> a while ago, could have been early '18 or back even further in
>> '17, I was checking the air filter (which I do roughly every 3-4
>> mows) and found it had a huge hole chewed in it. That means I
>> probably ran the machine unfiltered a couple times. Suspicious
>> and worried, I pulled the shrouds, and found the #1 cylinder fins
>> just packed with slow-roasted mouse-nest. Most likely, I ran it
>> a couple times with impaired cooling on that cylinder, and it
>> overheated. I cleaned it all out and went back to mowing. It
>> ran well, plenty of power, but I did notice an increase in oil
>> consumption. I wondered if that was the overheating, or the
>> ingestion of unfiltered dusty air. I didn't really feel like
>> tearing it down so I just kept running it. And, with an eye on
>> oil level, it did fine for 1-2 years, until just recently. It
>> coughed and started running poorly. Drove it into the shop and
>> found #1 was barely warm; it was only running on #2. Tore into
>> #1 and found both rods bent plus the bolt holding the "Rocker arm
>> bracket" was very loose. What the internet tells me is that
>> overheat leads to sticky valves and when a valve sticks the
>> pushrod gets out of place and bends. That sounds very plausible
>> but I'm still not sure how I bent BOTH of them and how that loose
>> rocker bracket happened. Oh and the head gasket is blown on that
>> side, which probably explains the increased oil consumption. I
>> am replacing the whole head, pushrods, valves, valve seals,
>> gaskets. Cost about $300 in parts online. Waiting right now for
>> parts to arrive and the grass is still growing.
>> SO
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 8:46 AM Cecil Bearden
>> <crbearden at copper.net> wrote:
>>
>> The only time I bent a push rod was when I over revved the
>> engine. It was on a 292 Ford V-8 in an old 57 4wd F100. I
>> got stuck and had to give it the gas to get out. I
>> straightened the rod out on an anvil and it i still running...
>> Cecil
>> On 9/17/2019 6:03 AM, Henry Miller wrote:
>>> My zero turn is in the shop with the same bent pushrods
>>> issue. Second time this summer. I'm thinking about a
>>> different engine... I have the replacement rods, but I found
>>> a small spring by the valves that doesn't come from anywhere
>>> obvious. I'll have to tear into it more now to see what else
>>> is wrong.
>>> --
>>> Henry Miller
>>> hank at millerfarm.com
>>> On Mon, Sep 16, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>>>> Mike M - that just happened to me yesterday! I've got a
>>>> Gravely zero-turn with Kawasaki V-twin that bent a pushrod
>>>> at 306 hours (known issue, easy-ish fix). It is sitting
>>>> right now waiting for parts to arrive. Yesterday, I was
>>>> walking past and happened to look down and saw 600 and
>>>> something hours on the meter, which was odd but didn't
>>>> quite register until it clicked over another tenth digit
>>>> while I was watching. That happens once every 6 minutes,
>>>> so I got real lucky to see it. I guess the key got bumped
>>>> somehow during disassembly Now, all the service reminders
>>>> are saying "CHG NOW". I'm doing engine oil and air filter
>>>> now anyway, but losing the service reminder on the hydro
>>>> units bugs me. It added 337 hours sitting still (divide by
>>>> 24 to see how long I've been waiting for parts, and
>>>> therefore how long the grass is getting!). Since I'm not
>>>> likely to ever sell this machine, I don't really care that
>>>> much about the fake hours.
>>>> Steve O.
>>>> On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 4:09 PM Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have a Scag zero turn that I bought new, I put about
>>>> 350 hours on it over the course of several years. When
>>>> I parked it this last fall, I accidentally left the key
>>>> on, so when I went to start it this Spring I had 3500
>>>> hours on it. Fortunately my daughter works at the
>>>> dealer so I was able to buy a new one.
>>>> Mike M
>>>> On 9/16/2019 2:42 PM, Spencer Yost wrote:
>>>>> New tractors have hours embedded in the computer.
>>>>> Replacement computers are easily spotted by the
>>>>> metadata in the computer. So for approximately the
>>>>> last 10-15 years we have a reliable indicator of usage
>>>>> or computer replacement/tampering on most models.
>>>>> However, being able to obtain the equipment and
>>>>> software necessary to read the computer is still a
>>>>> sticking point and at the heart of the right to repair
>>>>> lawsuits going around. These lawsuits are extending
>>>>> to other equipment and devices. So farmers were
>>>>> actually at the forefront of this movement.
>>>>> Ok fine print for the following:
>>>>> This is not a political statement. I absolutely
>>>>> positively never endorse any presidential candidate
>>>>> publicly on this list nor should the following be
>>>>> construed as support for the candidates mentioned. I
>>>>> only add the following statements and link as a way to
>>>>> let y’all know that our frustrations with equipment
>>>>> are being heard by some. Ok enough with the fine print:
>>>>> Elizabeth Warren added support for the right to repair
>>>>> movement as one of her written policy planks - To my
>>>>> knowledge the only one but the movement should grow to
>>>>> the point candidates probably won’t be able to ignore
>>>>> it. Here’s Warren’s policy paper on agriculture in
>>>>> general but in that she specifically mentions right to
>>>>> repair:
>>>>> https://medium.com/@teamwarren/leveling-the-playing-field-for-americas-family-farmers-823d1994f067
>>>>> I am watching the right to repair movement closely.
>>>>> Spencer
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> On Sep 16, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Al Jones
>>>>> <farmallsupera1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> No. If your tachometer goes bad, you get a new one
>>>>>> with 0000.0 hours.
>>>>>> Al
>>>>>> On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 11:52 PM Cecil Bearden
>>>>>> <crbearden at copper.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Probably not, and the mileage on the title of an
>>>>>> auto or truck is
>>>>>> nothing that can be relied on... I used to be
>>>>>> able to tell by the wear
>>>>>> on floorboards, rust, paint scratches etc if a
>>>>>> trucks mileage was
>>>>>> right. Tractors are a different animal. Usually
>>>>>> just change the tires
>>>>>> and if repainted, change the hoses and belts, new
>>>>>> seat and cab interior
>>>>>> and it is a new tractor.
>>>>>> Cecil
>>>>>> On 9/15/2019 8:36 PM, Jack wrote:
>>>>>> > Tractors are not titled. Automobiles and trucks
>>>>>> are. When you sell an auto, you record the
>>>>>> mileage at time of sale and your signature. Is it
>>>>>> even illegal to alter the hour meter on a tractor?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> > From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Cecil Bearden
>>>>>> > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2019 7:33 PM
>>>>>> > To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [AT] Statistics In Tractor
>>>>>> Manufacturing Was Bicycle Program
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The New Holland Money Pit is what it is because
>>>>>> somewhere in its history the hour meter was
>>>>>> turned back. New tires were installed and it was
>>>>>> made to look like a 5 yr old tractor with about
>>>>>> 200 hrs per year.
>>>>>> > Cecil
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On 9/14/2019 10:26 AM, James Peck wrote:
>>>>>> >> Some years ago I did participate in an
>>>>>> academic Statistical Quality Control course. Much
>>>>>> of the course involved the Weibull Distribution.
>>>>>> If I remember correctly, the Weibull Curve
>>>>>> predicted the lifespan of a manufactured assembly
>>>>>> such as a tractor. It appears to be a gift from
>>>>>> the mathematicians.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weibull_distribution
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> The same distribution probably predicts that
>>>>>> Cecil’s New Holland money pit will continue to be
>>>>>> so and will suffer an early demise.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> [Stephen Offiler] I never took a whole
>>>>>> semester of Statistics. Instead, we had a course
>>>>>> called Engineering Experimentation, which was
>>>>>> heavy on experiment design and statistical data
>>>>>> analysis. That gave me a very good appreciation
>>>>>> for the practical application of statistics.
>>>>>> Out in the real world, on-the-job training
>>>>>> programs in quality control principles in
>>>>>> manufacturing (Deming, Juran, Lean Six Sigma)
>>>>>> continued to solidify the practical applications.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> [Cecil Bearden] Steve: I nearly flunked
>>>>>> statistics I only passed because I was a
>>>>>> graduating senior. However, I did flunk Rocks &
>>>>>> Clods 2124 and had to find another 4 hours to
>>>>>> graduate. Then 35 years later I retire as a
>>>>>> Geotechnical engineer designing foundations. !!!
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> [Stephen Offiler] I'm not sure if that is an
>>>>>> interesting statistic, or simply predictable
>>>>>> statistically. All you just said is that a
>>>>>> bell-curve distribution for 2-year degrees
>>>>>> overlaps a bell-curve distribution for 4-year
>>>>>> degrees.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> [ James Peck] The interesting statistic is
>>>>>> that some technical 2 year programs have higher
>>>>>> starting incomes than many 4 year degree
>>>>>> programs. People who complete such a program can
>>>>>> later take a 2+2 program to get a four year
>>>>>> degree if they choose.
>>>>>> >>
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