[AT] Charles Sorensen not a tractor man

Sun Oct 20 13:59:47 PDT 2019

I have not run a JD two cylinder diesel long enough to vouch for fuel economy (I’m sure it’s true) but I have to vouch for 58 or 59(battery acid has ruined the serial number) Ford 861 diesel.  The day will come when I run that thing dry because it’s so miserly with fuel I forget to fill it up - literally!  I can’t count the number of times it’s suddenly struck me that it’s been a long time since I put fuel in it and I jump off to find I’m down to the last drop.  Need to get the fuel gauge working.....

My  smaller(134ci vs 172 in the Ford) 95 Kubota engine in my Bobcat is used many less hours a year and I’m always adding fuel to that thing.

Spencer

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 20, 2019, at 5:24 AM, deanvp at att.net wrote:
> 
> Interesting thoughts.  I don't know how much impact adding a three point to a Ford experimental type tractor like a 1939 Farmall H or M or say a JD A or B would have changed tractor sales or usage all that much. Fuel economy was still pretty important during the war years. The HP wars didn't start until after the war.  I don't think the flat head V8 would have been successful when used on the farm for reasons other than fuel economy and an example would be torque. Funk made Funk V8 and straight 6 conversions for the Fords but  I don't think they ever gained a big market share.  However, adding power to a N series Ford was really kind of like putting lipstick on a pig. For plowing and with the three point I suspect a little more hp could help but for most all other farm chores the Fords didn't have enough weight on the rear wheels to do much of anything. The Ford N series would never have succeeded without the Ferguson system. I can't speak for the Farmall M or H tractors but the JD tractors had 70% of their weight over the rear axle so tag implements were pulled with ease. And a three point hitch really wasn't needed for additional traction.  But in the early to mid 50's  the farmers got so sick of having to buy proprietary implements they forced the manufacturers to establish a standard hitch.  The three point hitch concept won. JD only jumped on the Three point hitch bandwagon because the farmers demanded it not that they thought it was really needed.  The standard conventional three point hitch they designed in on the 20 Series tractors announced in 1956 set the standard for many years. But....  then there was the other farmers like my Dad who had a whole barn full of tag implements and they were not going to buy a whole new line of implements just to take advantage of the three point hitch so implementation outside of Ford was very slow.  I can still hear my dad saying over and over. "We are NOT going to be machinery poor". Live with what you have, fix it until it is so worn out that you HAVE to buy something else. And then probably buy used if you could find something good. My Dad farmed from 1936 to 1962. His only brand new  tractor was purchased in 1962 and it was his first three point tractor.  It took him awhile to make the transition. I don't think he was that much behind very many other farmers.  Don't fix it if it isn't broken.   I consider the Ferguson System to be one of the top farm equipment inventions but it needs to be put into the right context for all types of tractors. John Deere was still succeeding in designing tractors that set new fuel economy standards in 1956. One was the JD 720 Diesel economy record that stood unbeaten for many years well into the 60's and 70's. And at the same time gained market share enough away from International Harvester to become the largest manufacturer of farm tractors in and around 1958. All with what many called an obsolete 2 cylinder design. And became the largest Farm Equipment manufacturer in around 1963. The three point hitch didn't cause all that. 
> 
> 
> Dean VP
> Snohomish, WA 98290
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AT <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> On Behalf Of James Peck
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2019 1:24 PM
> To: Antique Tractor Email Discussion Group <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> Subject: Re: [AT] Charles Sorensen not a tractor man
> 
> Sorensen implies that Henry was already senile when he made the deal with Harry. It worked for both of them. However, Henry could have just asked Harry to provide him a hydraulic belly lift and three point hitch for the 37 experimental. But why argue with a working machine. It turned Ford back into a major player in the tractor market.
> 
> There is no record of Harry and Henry falling out. When Henry died and his grandson took over, Hank the Deuce had to get rid of his competitors who had his grandfather's ear.
> 
> Harry Bennett, the gunslinger and wannabe mobster, who was Henry’s choice of successor.
> Charles Sorensen, who maintains the feds offered to give him the top job at Ford due to his Willow Run success.
> Harry Ferguson who knew HF2 when he was a kid.
> 
> The Ford row crop tractor  https://antiquetractorblog.com/2016/09/26/experimental-ford-tractor-link-between-fordson-and-ford-9n/ could have done well if they developed a integral hydraulic lift like Farmalls and Deere A B G etc had with matching attachments for planting and cultivation, the latter where the N series had limitations. Had they added three point as well they might have had a true game changer.
> 
> [James] That corrupted hard drive also had my photos of the 1937 or so Ford tractor experimental model. It looked like a Farmall F12 with a 1932 Ford V8 radiator shell and hood.  It does not live where it used to live.
> 
> I do not know how the torque curves of a flathead V8 compare to a straight four of the same displacement. Used to be that straight sixes were credited with more low rpm torque than equivalent displacement V8s. 
> 
> I believe that Charles Sorensen's viewpoint, expressed in his biography, that this model would have had much commercial success if Henry had not quashed it in favor of the 9N, is inaccurate. 
> 
> Charles was probably the gatekeeper who kept Ford and Ferguson apart for so long. If he was more tractor savvy, maybe the Farm Jeep would have been more of a success.
> 
> [James] Some years back I was invited to join a lean manufacturing email group by someone I interacted with in a stamping group. My experiences dealing with Toyota led me to speak up about some of the viewpoints of those who anticipated getting something for nothing. That led me to be lent a book about the manufacturing of TE20s at Banner Lane when Standard Motor Car was the world’s most efficient auto manufacturer. I scanned the book. Well, the wages of sin led to my hard drive becoming corrupted and it was not backed up.
> 
> [Indiana] One of my laptops is acting up so I was looking to be sure I had everything backed up. While looking I ran across this Ferguson and Ford information so I thought I would share it here. It always bothers me a little to think that I might have information someone could use and me failing to share it and it getting lost forever. My files are as badly organized as my shop...  :-) I don't recall who Bob Sybrandy is or where this information came from. I guess I might have found it on this ATIS list but I don't think so.
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