[AT] Charles Sorensen not a tractor man

Sun Oct 20 07:16:19 PDT 2019

A v8 could have long stroke, it's  just for packaging reasons ie. needing
to fit in an engine compartment, they usually don't.  But then each
cylinder doesn't need as long of a stroke because they have eight power
pulses to make it up. Cat 3406 3408 is a good example of this.

On Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 8:02 AM Cecil Bearden <crbearden at copper.net> wrote:

> In response to an earlier post....     A V-8 will never have the torque
> of an Inline engine.  There is just not enough room to swing the
> crankshaft.  I have a 78 Ford F-350 with a 400 small block.  I am in the
> process of rebuilding it with a set of Keith Black Pistons that will
> raise the compression ratio to a decent level.  This engine has the
> longest stroke of a production v-8 gasoline engine.  When produced in
> 1978, this engine was designed with pistons that had a compression
> distance that did not allow the piston to go to the top of the block.
> This was to lower compression for emissions.  The new design has reliefs
> for the valves and will raise the compression to about 9 to 1.  With
> some more tweaks I can raise the compression to 10 to 1.  It will have a
> propane system so I don't have to worry about running pump gas.
> Cecil
>
> On 10/20/2019 6:12 AM, James Peck wrote:
> > I worked on some industrial locomotive re-engineing projects where we
> put in a lower HP late model Cat or Cummins engine in place of the heavier
> low RPM OEM version. We would have to add ballast to make up for the lower
> weight.
> >
> > The replacement engine allowed the use of antifreeze and cold weather
> starts.
> >
> > The rule of thumb was the locomotive weight dictated what it would pull.
> > The horsepower would determine how fast it would pull it.
> >
> > Harry Ferguson was likely wrong to emphasize low tractor weight. An
> example would have been his use of aluminum castings.
> >
> > Most use of 3 point hitch in the current era is for other than plowing.
> Big tractors have the hydraulic cylinders or hydraulic motors on the off
> tractor equipment.
> >
> > Those low hanging wheel hub castings were dropped by IH and were likely
> a "get stuck" magnet. I have wondered if they worked against the Massey
> Harris GP which also had them.
> >
> > That 37 Experimental did not have a PTO. It should have included state
> of the art of all the competition. Maybe that means the same type of
> hydraulic cultivator lift that the John Deere A had.
> >
> > The Continental engine in the TO tractors had torque advantages over the
> 9N/8N  Ford engine. Maybe Henry did not understand the need for torque at
> low RPM.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Dean VP] Interesting thoughts.  I don't know how much impact adding a
> three point to a Ford experimental type tractor like a 1939 Farmall H or M
> or say a JD A or B would have changed tractor sales or usage all that much.
> Fuel economy was still pretty important during the war years. The HP wars
> didn't start until after the war.  I don't think the flat head V8 would
> have been successful when used on the farm for reasons other than fuel
> economy and an example would be torque. Funk made Funk V8 and straight 6
> conversions for the Fords but  I don't think they ever gained a big market
> share.  However, adding power to a N series Ford was really kind of like
> putting lipstick on a pig. For plowing and with the three point I suspect a
> little more hp could help but for most all other farm chores the Fords
> didn't have enough weight on the rear wheels to do much of anything. The
> Ford N series would never have succeeded without the Ferguson system. I
> can't speak for the Farmall M or H tractors but the JD tractors had 70% of
> their weight over the rear axle so tag implements were pulled with ease.
> And a three point hitch really wasn't needed for additional traction.  But
> in the early to mid 50's  the farmers got so sick of having to buy
> proprietary implements they forced the manufacturers to establish a
> standard hitch.  The three point hitch concept won. JD only jumped on the
> Three point hitch bandwagon because the farmers demanded it not that they
> thought it was really needed.  The standard conventional three point hitch
> they designed in on the 20 Series tractors announced in 1956 set the
> standard for many years. But....  then there was the other farmers like my
> Dad who had a whole barn full of tag implements and they were not going to
> buy a whole new line of implements just to take advantage of the three
> point hitch so implementation outside of Ford was very slow.  I can still
> hear my dad saying over and over. "We are NOT going to be machinery poor".
> Live with what you have, fix it until it is so worn out that you HAVE to
> buy something else. And then probably buy used if you could find something
> good. My Dad farmed from 1936 to 1962. His only brand new  tractor was
> purchased in 1962 and it was his first three point tractor.  It took him
> awhile to make the transition. I don't think he was that much behind very
> many other farmers.  Don't fix it if it isn't broken.   I consider the
> Ferguson System to be one of the top farm equipment inventions but it needs
> to be put into the right context for all types of tractors. John Deere was
> still succeeding in designing tractors that set new fuel economy standards
> in 1956. One was the JD 720 Diesel economy record that stood unbeaten for
> many years well into the 60's and 70's. And at the same time gained market
> share enough away from International Harvester to become the largest
> manufacturer of farm tractors in and around 1958. All with what many called
> an obsolete 2 cylinder design. And became the largest Farm Equipment
> manufacturer in around 1963. The three point hitch didn't cause all that.
> >
> > [James] Sorensen implies that Henry was already senile when he made the
> deal with Harry. It worked for both of them. However, Henry could have just
> asked Harry to provide him a hydraulic belly lift and three point hitch for
> the 37 experimental. But why argue with a working machine. It turned Ford
> back into a major player in the tractor market.
> >
> > There is no record of Harry and Henry falling out. When Henry died and
> his grandson took over, Hank the Deuce had to get rid of his competitors
> who had his grandfather's ear.
> >
> > Harry Bennett, the gunslinger and wannabe mobster, who was Henry’s
> choice of successor.
> > Charles Sorensen, who maintains the feds offered to give him the top job
> at Ford due to his Willow Run success.
> > Harry Ferguson who knew HF2 when he was a kid.
> >
> > [Jason] The Ford row crop tractor
> https://antiquetractorblog.com/2016/09/26/experimental-ford-tractor-link-between-fordson-and-ford-9n/
> could have done well if they developed a integral hydraulic lift like
> Farmalls and Deere A B G etc had with matching attachments for planting and
> cultivation, the latter where the N series had limitations. Had they added
> three point as well they might have had a true game changer.
> >
> > That corrupted hard drive also had my photos of the 1937 or so Ford
> tractor experimental model. It looked like a Farmall F12 with a 1932 Ford
> V8 radiator shell and hood.  It does not live where it used to live.
> >
> > I do not know how the torque curves of a flathead V8 compare to a
> straight four of the same displacement. Used to be that straight sixes were
> credited with more low rpm torque than equivalent displacement V8s.
> >
> > I believe that Charles Sorensen's viewpoint, expressed in his biography,
> that this model would have had much commercial success if Henry had not
> quashed it in favor of the 9N, is inaccurate.
> >
> > Charles was probably the gatekeeper who kept Ford and Ferguson apart for
> so long. If he was more tractor savvy, maybe the Farm Jeep would have been
> more of a success.
> >
> > Some years back I was invited to join a lean manufacturing email group
> by someone I interacted with in a stamping group. My experiences dealing
> with Toyota led me to speak up about some of the viewpoints of those who
> anticipated getting something for nothing. That led me to be lent a book
> about the manufacturing of TE20s at Banner Lane when Standard Motor Car was
> the world’s most efficient auto manufacturer. I scanned the book. Well, the
> wages of sin led to my hard drive becoming corrupted and it was not backed
> up.
> > .
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