[AT] R134a

[Mark Johnson]

One must hope that the standards for allowable leakage from an A/C 
system are as tight as for fuel systems...as I recall, the old R-12 
systems usually had 2-3 lbs of refrigerant. A couple pounds of propane 
would make a pretty good fuel-air bomb, worst case...or an underhood 
blowtorch with a broken line spraying. Neither are my idea of a good 
time - and, unlike gasoline, diesel, or alcohol, a Freon-compatible 
refrigerant is self-propelling. Of course, the same is true of a gaseous 
fuel, whether natural gas, hydrogen, or propane.

Not sure about disposing of gasoline...if you live in an area that has a 
'household hazardous waste' collection point, they might take it a 
gallon or so at a time. I wouldn't bet that they'd want 10+ gallons in 
one whack, though. 5 year old gasoline might be ok to burn in a tractor 
or truck, especially if diluted. Is that a 'gas tank full' like a 100 
gallon farm gas barrel, or a full tank of gas in the old Case?

I've never had any trouble disposing of anything at a household waste 
collection - old solvents, aged paint, dead fluorescent lights, 
including those I *knew* contained mercury; they've always taken 
everything. I think they do draw the line at low-level radioactive 
waste, but the only bits of that I've ever had have been in microcurie 
amounts in old smoke detectors.

Mark J

On 1/14/2019 8:15 AM, Ken Knierim wrote:
> How much more flammable than fuel are these refrigerants? Vehicles are 
> fueled by propane, gasoline, alcohol, natural gas, batteries and in 
> some cases, hydrogen. Seems that stored energy is there regardless... 
> and from my meager understanding, there isn't a whole lot of flammable 
> material in the A/C systems when using these types of refrigerants.
>
> One other thing, probably more useful to me... what's the safe method 
> of disposing this newer gasoline when it goes bad? I've got a gas tank 
> full of 5+ year old gas that I need to find a home for. I can't burn 
> that much in my old Case tractors because I don't run them very much 
> anymore.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken in AZ
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 6:58 PM Steve W. <swilliams268 at frontier.com 
> <mailto:swilliams268 at frontier.com>> wrote:
>
>     Mark Johnson wrote:
>     > There is one problem with Red Tek 12A - which you already touched
>     > on...flammability. The propane+n-isobutane mix has been known
>     for a good
>     > many years - it has all the same useful properties as R-12 - almost
>     > identical eutectic curve, carries oil through the system, and so
>     on. My
>     > dad (a 1950 engineering graduate) apparently took a 'practical
>     > thermodynamics' course where they spent a lot of time studying
>     > properties of gases that would be useful as refrigerants. Even
>     as early
>     > as the late 1940's, hydrocarbon gases like propane were known to be
>     > useful - but the available gasket and seal technology meant that
>     they
>     > were too hazardous to use in commercial environments. [As an
>     engineer,
>     > Pop was responsible for maintaining the chiller systems for milk
>     and ice
>     > cream production at a dairy plant, from about 1952 to 1963.]
>     Propane
>     > might have been better than ammonia, even then - but small
>     ammonia leaks
>     > are easily detectable, and the stuff doesn't explode!
>     >
>     > I can remember when those 14 oz cans of R-12 were 59 cents at
>     > K-Mart...the stuff was cheaper than bottled water. Anybody who
>     could
>     > read a gauge set and turn a wrench could recharge their own A/C
>     - which
>     > no doubt contributed to the 'escape' problem,  as it was cheaper to
>     > recharge the system once a month than to go get it fixed.
>     >
>     > Mark J
>
>     That's why it is illegal to use. The guy who was pushing the stuff
>     back
>     then managed to blow himself up while demonstrating how "safe" the
>     stuff
>     was..
>
>
>     -- 
>     Steve W.
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