[AT] 430V

Wed Sep 13 10:09:58 PDT 2017

Thanks farmer:  i'm sure there is an advantage to generating shock loads,  like the side-to-side of the dentist. When I had one wheel up I was jumping up and down on the tire. When I had the whole rear of the tractor suspended I was bouncing; so I did try a little mechanical vantage in the form of shock.

Great info Steve!   The tractor weighs about 4000 pounds with the wheel weight on the hitch.   Lifting the rear wheels I am estimating 2800pounds and about  14" from the center of the rear axle.  Using the formula, I calculate  600 pounds of force.  Fairly significant but it doesn't "feel" sufficient.

At any rate, I need more force.  So I am building the frame i can attach to the tractor so I can create an opposing force for the  jack besides gravity.  Here is the diagram of the #1 cylinder position(from the drivers seat).  Because of various things ( like the oil pump), the #1 counter weight is really the only thing I can safely jack against.   I think this is the closest thing I can come to a wedge.

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image1.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 36911 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.antique-tractor.com/pipermail/at-antique-tractor.com/attachments/20170913/0ee8545d/attachment-0001.jpe>
-------------- next part --------------

Spencer Yost

> On Sep 13, 2017, at 8:08 AM, Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Spencer:
> 
> Getting back to the point where the discussion brushed on the
> toggle/knuckle press analogy.  See attached sketch.  When almost at TDC, a
> force applied at the toggle "hinge" (crank pin represents the hinge) is
> multiplied on each of the "arms" (con rod and crank throw represent the
> arms).  On the tractor, when you apply force to the rear axle with
> transmission in 5th, this force tries to spin the crank, creating a
> torque.  Relation between this torque and the force at the toggle hinge is
> shown in the sketch.  How big is this force, I asked myself.
> 
> I looked up the bore and stroke numbers:  4.25" x 4.00" so the crank throw
> is 2" which is .167 ft.  I made a couple quick assumptions about engine rpm
> and tractor ground speed in 5th and came up with roughly 30:1 reduction
> ratio thru the transmission.  That's the engine's advantage over the rear
> axle, so it is a disadvantage working backward.  If you could hang 100lb at
> 6' horizontally behind rear axle (say a 4x4 chained to the wheel) that's
> 600 ft-lb on the axle and with that ratio it works out to just 20 ft-lb on
> the crank.  With the 0.167 ft throw, that's a force (shown as big F in the
> sketch) of 120 lb.
> 
> What I'd be trying to do is apply larger force at F.  I was thinking of
> maybe driving wooden wedges between the crank and the block.
> 
> SO
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 11:44 PM, Spencer Yost <yostsw at atis.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Be glad to Mike.
>> 
>> But first I want to mention some of the comments about patience. I've
>> never had a tractor that begs to be "snuck up on". This is clearly a
>> tractor that deserves to have a chance to be freed with the least amount of
>> tool marks, grease removal, and parts replacement. If I can get this
>> tractor running well without any disassembly or noticeable "technician
>> marks", this is it.  I feel certain, based on what I've seen, that I can
>> get this tractor freed and running. If it doesn't run to my satisfaction
>> then I will tear it down. But I think I can get it to run well without
>> tearing it apart.
>> 
>> What I have tried:
>> 1: I shot it a couple of birds. This did not work
>> 2: I drink a couple beers and stared at it. This did not work.
>> 3: I soaked it for three months in a variety of different penetrating
>> fluids.
>> 4:: I raised one wheel, put it in fifth gear, and tried to apply force to
>> the raised wheel while the other wheel was  on the ground and chocked. This
>> did not work.
>> 5: I tried raising the entire rear of the tractor with chains on the rear
>> wheels and 5th gear.  Nothing.
>> 6:: I tried refrigerant. This seemed promising, but did not do anything in
>> the long run.
>> 7: I tried a hydraulic jack  on the counterweight of the crankshaft. But
>> the front end of the tractor is  the light and I feel sure I'm not putting
>> much pressure on it.
>> 8:  I have tried putting air pressure on the cylinder to try to drive the
>> penetrate down.
>> 9:  Rapping the piston with a brass bar during all of these
>> 
>> To do:
>> 
>> 1:  air pressure:  I am having still a little too much trouble with air
>> pressure leakage through the valves. So I am closing off the exhaust
>> manifold and the intake manifold with some bar stock and gasket material.
>> I have yet to finish this, as the exhaust flange was a real bear to get off
>> of the exhaust manifold. I just got that off tonight. Hopefully within a
>> day or three I will have that finished. Then I should be able to apply
>> plenty of pressure to the cylinder.
>> 2:  Create an opposing force for the hydraulic jack on the counter weight
>> on front cylinder. I will be fabricating a frame that  mount to the
>> cultivator bolts. This will allow the jack to push against something other
>> than gravity.  This should be easy, but I am cheap. Channel iron, anchors
>> and eye bolts are expensive.  So I'm trying to find something that I can
>> fabricate, or buy, that will allow me to inexpensively build some sort of a
>> frame or chain sling to mount the hydraulic jack on top of.  Still
>> researching this.
>> 3:  Additional hyper cooling. I may still try the dry ice and alcohol
>> method.
>> 4:  A penetrate that works on the aluminum oxide in the galvanic
>> corrosion. There are a few compounds that do this. I got one from Brice
>> Adams who got it from a chemist at the university he works at(methyl
>> salicylate). If I try any type of solution, this will be it. But it seems
>> like black magic. So I'm going to leave this for later.
>> 
>> Things I have ruled out:
>> 
>> 1: Pulling it. If I can't get it to free with methods I've tried,  I'll
>> just leave rubber on the road.
>> 2:  Rust removal solutions. I may try this yet, but the compounds I have
>> looked at I doubt will do anything, as I believe galvanic corrosion between
>> the aluminum and iron is my main problem.
>> 
>> As usual, keep the ideas coming!
>> 
>> Spencer Yost
>>> On Sep 12, 2017, at 5:41 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I've heard of the diet coke idea as well. To think I used to drink the
>>> stuff.
>>> 
>>> Spencer, this has been a long thread, and your patience is incredible.
>>> Would it be possible to give a short summary of what's been tried so far?
>>> 
>>> Mike M
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> AT mailing list
>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
> <JD430V.jpg>
> _______________________________________________
> AT mailing list
> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at