[AT] 430V

vschwartz1 at comcast.net vschwartz1 at comcast.net
Tue Sep 5 14:41:07 PDT 2017 

Spencer; 
I have fought the urge to jump into this fray about as along as I can stand it. So here goes. With all of the things that you have tried and all of the very good ideas that have come from the various members, I feel that your only problem left is simply that the engine will not turn. The various and sundry efforts have been to no avail. I feel that the real problem is that close proximity to TDC and BDC make it near impossible to apply any great pressure to that non-rotating engine. I believe at this point I would try to apply some hydraulic pressure to the number two crank throw. I believe it would be near impossible to apply any appreciable down pressure to the number one throw. I certainly do believe that if you get the right pressure in the right spot, the engine will turn. I am definitely not a fan of hammer blows, at least not formidable hammer blows unless you are in a position of reducing something to junk. 
I do believe that you will succeed. This tractor has not had that much lockup time. 
Good luck with it. 
Gil 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Spencer Yost" <yostsw at atis.net> 
To: "Antique" <at at lists.antique-tractor.com> 
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 5:20:42 PM 
Subject: Re: [AT] 430V 

Good call out Steve, I had not considered that. The stuck piston is very near to TDC. Just a quarter inch to half-inch to go. As Dean said, its beginning to feel like I'm SOL 

Number two cylinder valves are closed. My guess is the engine stopped on the number 2 compression stroke. So it barely turned over bottom dead center. #1 exhaust valve is open. Which means the number one cylinder is probably just beginning to leave the exhaust stroke. 

To Charlie: one of the reasons I'm trying my best to unstick it without a lot of teardown is because of the backstory of this tractor. It was running as recently as a year or two ago and lost it's covered storage even more recently. It can't possibly have rusted too bad in that length of time; one would think. It's backstory is enough of a reason to try less invasive means. Also the borescope reveals cylinder walls that are not in that bad shape. Again this is only having a quarter to a half inch to look at though . There were a lot of rust flakes from the exhaust manifold in there and I flushed and vacuumed them out. And the combustion chamber has some rusting. But the cylinder walls are surprisingly good - just some black markings and some very light rusting. Once the piston moves I may find something different. 

Thanks for all the continuing advice. 

Spencer SOL Yost 

> On I Sep 3, 2017, at 4:08 PM, Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> I'll second what Charlie said, and add another factor: 
> 
> You've been in there with a bore scope, right? Is the stuck piston near 
> TDC or BDC? If so, the geometry isn't giving you much mechanical advantage 
> against the piston. 
> 
> SO 
> 
> On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 12:26 PM, charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com> 
> wrote: 
> 
>> Spencer, have you tried loading pressure against it in the other 
>> (opposite) rotation? 
>> 
>> I am still of the personal opinion, if it was mine and stuck that tight, 
>> I'd want to see what's going on inside it. Even if you get it to break 
>> loose aren't you going to be worried about the damage that might 
>> be done if you start and run it without knowing exactly where and why 
>> it is stuck? 
>> 
>> Charlie 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: Spencer Yost 
>> Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 9:37 AM 
>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group 
>> Subject: Re: [AT] 430V 
>> 
>> Thanks Tom. The tractor is a very low hour tractor, and I am very amazed at 
>> how little play there is to develop any real acceleration with the roll 
>> back-and-forth method. I have tried chocking one wheel, raising the other 
>> and shock loading that way. With the set up I just put together yesterday I 
>> can vertically rock , from the operator's platform, the tractor and get 
>> some real good up and down shock loading(engine hoist arm flexes a bit). 
>> 
>> PS. The hoist did not leak down over night. 
>> 
>> Spencer Yost 
>> 
>>> On Sep 3, 2017, at 12:35 AM, toma at risingnet.net wrote: 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I think a little shock action (clunk clunk back and forth) in 5th gear 
>>> may produce better results than constant weight. 
>>> Tom 
>>> -- 
>>> Sent from myMail app for Android Saturday, 02 September 2017, 
>>> 08:58PM -0700 from Spencer Yost < yostsw at atis.net> : 
>>> 
>>>> I just checked on the tractor and Nada. The hoist cylinder is holding, 
>>>> and now that I think about it, I think I did replace the cylinder about 
>>>> eight or 10 years ago. I think the fear I have about the cylinder not 
>>>> holding relates to the old one that I used to have that I have since 
>>>> replaced. 
>>>> 
>>>> I had not thought about the 4x4 straps, but I had thought about moving 
>>>> the hoist back some. I have limited space to work with, so I ruled that 
>>>> out. As for weights I may add some tomorrow. I have some weights from 
>>>> the John Deere B I used to own, and some weights for my Pacer that are 
>>>> not installed currently. As for gearing I am using fifth gear. I did 
>>>> only earn a B in or physics so I may be wrong about this; but I believe 
>>>> 5th gear(this tractor does have the 5 speed option) on the wheel is the 
>>>> same thing as first gear in normal engine powered circumstances and 
>> would 
>>>> generate the most torque. I would love some discussion on this. I don't 
>>>> have a lot of confidence in my understanding. 
>>>> 
>>>> Spencer Yost 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Spencer Yost 
>>>>> On Sep 2, 2017, at 9:38 PM, Dean VP < deanvp at att.net > wrote: 
>>>>> 
>>>>> What would increase the torque would be strapping a 4x4 to each wheel 
>>>>> and 
>>>>> then using the hoist 6 feet or so feet back away from the wheels. 
>>>>> Adding 
>>>>> weight to the tractor over the axle will also help. I'd have to think 
>>>>> about 
>>>>> it a bit which gear would transmit the most torque to the engine. 
>>>>> Inserting the right length board under the hoist would eliminate any 
>>>>> leak 
>>>>> down. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message----- 
>>>>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com 
>>>>> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of Spencer 
>> Yost 
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 6:02 PM 
>>>>> To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com 
>>>>> Subject: [AT] 430V 
>>>>> 
>>>>> The shop reorganization happened today, so I had the opportunity to try 
>>>>> to 
>>>>> apply constant pressure to the engine by raising the rear wheels. An 
>>>>> engine 
>>>>> hoist and a fence stretcher used as a spreader bar seems to fit the 
>>>>> bill. 
>>>>> The cut-outs in the wheels that the chain loop through are at 90 
>> degrees 
>>>>> to 
>>>>> vertical so I should be generating as much force as possible. Engine 
>>>>> still 
>>>>> has not moved but I just started. The engine hoist cylinder is not 
>>>>> leaking 
>>>>> down like I seem to remember it would, so I will leave it overnight. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> PS: To show you were an optimist I am, I drained the penetrating fluid 
>>>>> from 
>>>>> the cylinder so it wouldn't spray all over the shop when the engine 
>>>>> let's 
>>>>> go. :-) 
>>>>> 
>>>>> PSS. I remember enough of college physics to know that lifting it 
>> more 
>>>>> than just barely off the ground actually decreases force So I'll keep a 
>>>>> close eye on the engine hoist to make sure it's not leaking down. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Stayed tuned. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________ 
>>>>> AT mailing list 
>>>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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