[AT] OT modern computer controlls (please delete now if you don't like the topic)

[charlie hill]

David,  I'm glad you have a good one.  Thinking back on my message
it sounds like I'm indicting all mechanics and I am certainly not.  I just
can't find many, if any, decent ones here.  There is a local franchise 
dealer
for mid to high end cars who claims to have the most certified techs of
any shop in the state.  4 times the number the factory requires him to have.
A few years back I took a new car in for warranty work because the 
condensation
in the A/C duct was backing up and running out in the floor when the car 
rounded
curves.  The inside of this less than one year old car smelled like dirty 
socks.
After 3 tries this best in the state shop had their service manager come out 
and
explain to me that he had found a tech bulletin and had installed "a delay 
relay"
to make my heater-A/C fan run after the car is shut off to dry out the duct.

What he had actually done is take an old relay box from some GM car that had 
a
relay that ran the radiator cooling fan after shut down.  He had screwed it 
to the fender
well and stuck the wires into  the A/C housing under the hood.  It wasn't 
hooked to anything.
I drove the car straddle a ditch, crawled under it and found that the drain 
nipple had somehow
become inverted block the condensation from draining.  That is what I 
suspected when I took it
to them but it was under warranty and a friends car, not mine.  Both of the 
owners of this dealership
are personal friends of mine!

Oh they also "instructed" me that the condensation I complained about inside 
the instrument panel
was "Not Condensation"...... It was "Moisture".

That was in the late 90's.  The service there is no better today despite 
their claims.

Most of the independent shops here price your work based on what parts they 
need for their race car
that week.

Charlie

-----Original Message----- 
From: David Bruce
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 8:03 PM
To: Antique tractor email discussion group
Subject: Re: [AT] OT modern computer controlls

I have a local auto mechanic the is really good. Beyond that I agree
totally.

Right now he is sidelined with a knee replacement - his son is running
the business and is also quite good.

It really helps to have someone you trust for this. I don;t have the
same realtionship with a tractor mechanic.

David

NW NC


On 3/24/2017 4:12 PM, charlie hill wrote:
> David,  I find myself doing more and more repairs because I
> can no longer trust the techs to diagnose a problem instead of
> just throwing expensive components around.  YouTube is a great
> help.  If it's a common problem on a popular model you can bet
> someone has posted a how to video on YouTube that covers it.
> You just have to watch several and go with the consensus because
> there is no watchman on YouTube to make sure bogus information isn't
> posted.
>
> I just refuse to pay a "technician" $70 to $100 an hour to guess and 
> install
> parts starting with the most expensive and working backwards.
>
>
> Charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Bruce
> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 2:27 PM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] OT modern computer controlls
>
> I think that is a fair statement - just like I no longer even attempt to
> repair my vehicles. My concern is whether or not independent shops (with
> qualified technicians) can have access as needed. That is a gray area in
> the law other than for on the road vehicles.
>
> David
>
> NW NC
>
>
> On 3/23/2017 2:03 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>> My point, Dean, is not really pro-EPA nor con-EPA.  My point is that
>> computerization might have been started by emission controls, but that's
>> history already.  MANY aspects of modern automobiles (and modern farm
>> equipment for that matter) that have nothing at all to do with emissions
>> (antilock brakes, traction control, security systems, entertainment
>> systems, climate control systems, automatic transmissions, etc) are now
>> computerized.  Therefore, repairs that relate to any of these systems now
>> tends to require a level of equipment and technical understanding that
>> surpasses most shade-tree do-it-yourselfers.
>>
>> SO
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:13 PM, Dean VP <deanvp at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Stephen,
>>>
>>> The EPA has done some good things to help clean up the air but IMHO have
>>> gone way overboard in over regulating causing excessive cost increases
>>> for
>>> manufactures.  There has to be some kind of reasonable balance.   We are
>>> not
>>> at that point right now.
>>>
>>> Dean VP
>>> Apache junction, AZ
>>>
>>> It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of Stephen
>>> Offiler
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 7:20 AM
>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group 
>>> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT modern computer controlls
>>>
>>> I don't intended to sound like I'm disagreeing with Thomas.  I think his
>>> EPA
>>> comment does in fact apply to the basic history of modern engine
>>> complexity.
>>> But as usual the story is a lot more complex than that.  I lifted the
>>> following from Wikipedia because I agree and so it saves me a bunch of
>>> time
>>> trying to summarize what I know about Right To Repair legislation and
>>> controversy (I work in the automotive aftermarket, and occasionally some
>>> of
>>> this stuff touches me professionally)
>>>
>>> "...The 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments required all vehicles built after
>>> 1994 to include on-board computer systems to monitor vehicle emissions.
>>> The
>>> bill also required automakers to provide independent repairers the same
>>> emissions service information as provided to franchised new car dealers.
>>> California further passed legislation requiring that all emissions
>>> related
>>> service information and tools be made available to independent shops.
>>> Unlike the Clean Air Act, the California bill also required the car
>>> companies to maintain web sites which contained all of their service
>>> information and which was accessible on a subscription basis to repair
>>> shops
>>> and car owners.
>>>
>>> As automotive technology advanced, computers came to control the vital
>>> systems of every vehicle, including brakes, ignition keys, air bags,
>>> steering mechanisms and more.[3] Repairing motor vehicles became a
>>> high-tech
>>> operation, with computer diagnostic tools replacing a mechanic's
>>> observation
>>> and experience.[4] These developments eventually made manufacturers the
>>> "gatekeepers" of advanced information necessary to repair or supply 
>>> parts
>>> to
>>> motor vehicles..."
>>>
>>> Link:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners'_Right_to_Repair_Act
>>>
>>>
>>> SO
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 7:34 AM, Thomas O Mehrkam
>>> <tmehrkam at sbcglobal.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am aware most to the complexity you find in modern engines is the
>>>> result of EPA regulations. I was not aware the EPA would go after the
>>>> manufacture for modifications made by a third party.  That is insane.
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/2017 9:19 PM, Henry Miller wrote:
>>>>> I'm an employee of John deere, but I don't speak for them.
>>>>>
>>>>> This article is misrepresenting the situation. People claim they
>>>>> just want to fix things, but when you really press then in it they
>>>>> will admit what they really want is to disable all the emissions
>>>>> controls and/or get more power. Of course John deere isn't going to
>>>>> agree to that, nor will any competitor. The way the law is written
>>>>> the EPA will be after deere for anyone who modifies their tractor
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to work on your tractor, all the codes are in a book
>>>>> that you can order.  Any heavy duty scan tool which your autoparts
>>>>> store will sell you will read the codes. That is enough to do most
>>>>> repairs.  It isn't enough to replace an ecu, but since that only
>>>>> comes from deere, the dealer should provide the programming.
>>>>>
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