[AT] JD B resurrection contemplation

charlie hill charliehill at embarqmail.com
Wed Apr 5 08:34:08 PDT 2017


Cecil,  the racing industry (NASCAR, etc.)  has gone to cryogenic
hardening for critical race parts.  They used to heat treat but found
that the hardening occurs due to the cooling effect so it's easier to
freeze than to heat and then cool.  Or at least that's how it was explained
in an article I read. (subject to my memory)

Charlie

-----Original Message----- 
From: Cecil Bearden
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 3:27 PM
To: Antique tractor email discussion group
Subject: Re: [AT] JD B resurrection contemplation

Liquid N can be bought at a lot of welding supply stores that sell
gases.  It can be kept for a while in a thermos bottle with a hole
drilled in the cap.  It will evaporate and release pressure, If you cap
it completely without the relief hole, the thermos will blow up.  It is
kept under about 3000 PSI at the supply.  An Artificial  Insemination
supply also carries it.  A lot of dealers in semen will be on a delivery
route.   I have a 20 Liter Dewar I bought and use it for freeze
branding.  It also works great for removing skin moles, tags, etc.
Pistons dipped in Liquid N for a while are harder when put into
service.  Some steels harden in the presence of Liquid N.   I have just
found it to be real handy when making interference fits, fitting piston
pins, and just busting rust.  If I did not keep it around for branding,
I would never have starting using it.  The Thermos bottle trick will
work for about 3 days...

Cecil in OKla



On 4/4/2017 12:24 PM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
> I think dry ice is definitely worth a try, because it's far easier to
> obtain and to work with than liquid nitrogen.
>
> Dry ice is -110F and it's a solid.  Liquid nitrogen is -320F and it's a
> liquid.  Not only is liquid nitrogen far colder than dry ice, but also,
>   being a liquid it will have intimate contact with the vessel containing
> it... that vessel being the upside-down piston in this case.  The trick
> with dry ice would be to figure out how to get it into good contact with
> the inside of the piston.  Another upside to dry ice is that there's less
> danger of things becoming so brittle that they shatter, which matters if
> you're trying to re-use the parts.
>
>
>
> SO
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 12:26 PM, charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Al,  the Nitrogen will lower the temperature of the piston dramatically
>> and cause it to shrink, breaking the bond with the cyl. wall.
>> A hunk of dry ice laid on top of the piston should do the same thing.
>> At least that is what I think it would do.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Al Jones
>> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 9:41 PM
>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>> Subject: Re: [AT] JD B resurrection contemplation
>>
>> Cecil, can you elaborate on the liquid Nitrogen thing for removing
>> stuck pistons?
>>
>> Al
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Cecil Bearden <crbearden at copper.net>
>> wrote:
>>> If you have to remove the block w/ stuck pistons, turn it upside down,
>>> fill the pistons up to the tops of the skirts with liquid Nitrogen,
>>> Liquid propane works too, I used it until I got a Dewar.  Let it sit
>>> awhile then try to push the pistons out with a hardwood block or a heavy
>>> metal spacer that just fits into the bore, and a hydraulic jack.  If you
>>> have a big press that would be great.
>>>
>>> Cecil in OKla
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/2/2017 9:44 PM, deanvp wrote:
>>>> John, Excellent advice. I've had good luck filling the cylinders with a
>>>> favorite concoction, assuming both valves are closed and rocker arm and
>>>> spark plugs removed, and use a long bar tied to the flywheel. Let it
>> soak
>>>> for days maybe even weeks. Each day try to turn the flywheel. When it 
>>>> is
>>>> ready it will pop loose. Then work the flywheel back and forth until 
>>>> you
>>>> can get it to turn several revolutions. Then have someone pull you on
>> the
>>>> tractor with it in gear with either Kerosene or Diesel fuel in the
>>>> crankcase.  Let the engine turn over and over until it is fully
>> loose.The
>>>> thinner fluid helps get the cylinder wall lubricated faster than 
>>>> regular
>>>> oil.  Then do what you normally do to start it the first time. It may
>>>> exhaust all kinds of crap out the muffler and will probably exhaust a
>> lot
>>>> of blue smoke for a long time due to oil rings which may be stuck.  Get
>>>> the engine up to operating temperature(200 degrees if possible) and run
>>>> it at that temp for at least 15 minutes. Then !
>> s!
>>>   hut it down for at least 24 hours and start it again and see if the 
>>> blue
>>> smoke is less.  Repeat as necessary. The heating and cooling will
>>> eventually release the stuck rings if you are lucky. I've saved three 2
>>> cylinder JD engines this way and have never needed to tear them down.
>>> Might be worth a try. Worst case you will have to tear it down.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy Tablet
>>>> -------- Original message --------From: John Hall <jtchall at nc.rr.com>
>>>> Date: 4/2/17  7:00 PM  (GMT-07:00) To: Antique tractor email discussion
>>>> group <at at lists.antique-tractor.com> Subject: Re: [AT] JD B
>> resurrection
>>>> contemplation
>>>> If the cylinders are stuck because they are full of water, then 
>>>> nothing,
>>>> you are going to have to take it apart and remove the gunk. VERIFY that
>>>> the valves are not stuck or you WILL break something (been there done
>>>> that)---ever notice how many hit-and-miss engines have the rocker arm
>>>> post welded back to the head? The problem with trying to soak a Deere 
>>>> is
>>>> the amount of fluid it takes to fill up the cylinder, of course if 
>>>> there
>>>> is a valve open you are going to be filling up something else as well.
>>>> When we were working on my Titan 10-20 (also a 2 cylinder horizontal
>>>> engine), I just went to Lowes and bought a gallon of wd-40 and poured
>>>> half in each cylinder and let it soak until we ever got it in the shop,
>>>> somewhere between a week and 2 months, I don't remember. I've heard 
>>>> good
>>>> things about diesel and ATF, besides its cheap. If this turns out to be
>>>> a worst case scenario of frozen solid, Then pull the engine and safely
>>>> secure it with the bores upright so you can resort to better 
>>>> penetrating
>>>> oils such as PB-Blaster or Kroil. I had one so bad once we poured in
>>>> diesel fuel and set it on fire. Obviously there are many dangers with
>>>> that and you need to think ahead and have at least one other person
>>>> around for help. Know before you decide to beat the crap out of the
>>>> pistons to remove them, you need to make something that has a little 
>>>> bit
>>>> of clearance in the bore and has a relieved center--remember the center
>>>> of the piston isn't stuck so you don't need to hit it--you need to hit
>>>> the skirt/sides, thats the reason for the relieved face. I've heard of
>>>> using wood but I prefer metal myself. For really bad engines I've heard
>>>> of dry ice, boiling water,lots of ideas. Lets hope yours is rather
>>>> "boring" and comes apart easily.
>>>>
>>>> Well I got long winded on that, keep us posted please, been a 
>>>> LOOOOOOONG
>>>> time since anyone here actually took on a restoration like this (if 
>>>> they
>>>> did I don't recall any posts about it).
>>>>
>>>> John Hall
>>>>
>>>> On 4/2/2017 5:52 PM, Al Jones wrote:
>>>>> Now, I know it's been discussed a million times, and everyone has 
>>>>> their
>>>>> favorite, but what do you think would be the best "julip" to start
>>>>> soaking it with?  My notion is to fill the spark plug holes as well as
>>>>> fill the main case....I fear there's rust in the crankcase/tranny
>>>>> because the gear shift lever is stuck.
>>>>>
>>>>> Al
>>>>>
>>>>>
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