[AT] OT LED question

Sun Nov 6 18:47:23 PST 2016

Hi Cecil,
	My guess is that you do not drive your 37 Plymouth very often, or far, at night. Why not mount a 12 volt set of removable headlights on the bumper and connect them to a fully charged 12 volt battery under the hood that could also be removed (and hidden in the trunk) for “show” times?
	Dave
PS, ’37 was a remarkable year—at least from my perspective!


> On Nov 6, 2016, at 9:18 PM, Cecil Bearden <crbearden at copper.net> wrote:
> 
> Re: My old 1937 Plymouth with the 6 volt lights.   I really need to find 
> a listing on the bulb that is supposed to be used in the reflectors.  If 
> the filament is not in the right place, it would certainly make a 
> difference.  I have kept it all original, including the interior.   If I 
> can find 6 volt led headlight assemblies, I could mount them on the 
> bumper like fog lights and It would solve the problem.
> 
> 
> On 11/6/2016 6:36 PM, rlgoss at twc.com wrote:
>> This is the first time I have seen a discussion of this topic in more than 40 years.  My father was a design engineer for GE for most of his career, and he used to describe this process to me.  (Feeling nostalgic here.)
>> 
>> Larry
>> ---- Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> That's very interesting, Herb!  I know zero about tungsten metallurgy, but
>>> it certainly sounds like they were worried about something at the ingot
>>> level, something like impurity levels perhaps.
>>> 
>>> Accelerated life testing of incandescents is pretty easy.  Just boost the
>>> voltage.  There is a very strong, but also very predictable, life reduction
>>> at elevated voltages.  I found this graph that puts it all together pretty
>>> nicely.  You can see several things here; for example, see how the efficacy
>>> increases at elevated voltage (chart says efficacy is up 20% for a 10%
>>> voltage increase)  and life is cut by about 2/3 at that same point.  With
>>> voltage up 20%, life is shortened by over 90%.  You can life-test a 2000-hr
>>> bulb and get answers in less than a week.
>>> 
>>> http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Documents/IN%20Voltage.htm
>>> 
>>> SO
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Herb Metz <metz-h.b at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Stephen's post is interesting, and as always, informative.  Decades ago
>>>> (1960's), when I was an engineer at GE (Appliance Control Dept), we had a
>>>> tour of a GE lighting manufacturing facility.  Even though their ingots for
>>>> bulb filament were special, as one would expect, they would make a short
>>>> production run of bulbs from each ingot (this was my understanding at that
>>>> time), then accelerate life test these bulbs before using that ingot.
>>>> Looking back, wish someone would have questioned: accelerated test method,
>>>> number of filaments/ingot (1,000's, maybe millions), criteria for
>>>> determining if ingot was useable, etc.  I have no idea as to when GE
>>>> started
>>>> large scale manufacturing of incandescant bulbs; nor how long they
>>>> continued
>>>> this above practice. Herb(GA)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Stephen Offiler
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2016 6:53 AM
>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
>>>> 
>>>> Charlie, I do not believe I expressed or implied ANY doubt about your
>>>> convenience-store 100W bulbs.  What I posted was the details of the Act of
>>>> Congress that created this situation, not exclusively directed at you, but
>>>> also for the others on the list who might be interested in what happened to
>>>> the incandescent bulb.  I also mentioned one way (did not say it was the
>>>> ONLY way) an EISA compliant 100W incandescent can be built (halogen).
>>>> 
>>>> Draw your own conclusions, everyone.  Are old-school incandescent bulbs
>>>> actually still legal?  Well, if labeled "Rough Service" the answer is yes.
>>>>   Is Charlie's convenience store selling legal bulbs?  Are there other ways
>>>> to make a legal 100W bulb?  That question is interesting and I've commented
>>>> a bit on that too.  The Act requires increased efficiency, which in
>>>> lighting engineering is called efficacy.  It is lumens (light quantity)
>>>> divided by the electricity in watts needed to create that light.
>>>> 
>>>> An incandescent bulb can be designed with a heavy filament that runs cooler
>>>> and resists burning out, but the efficacy suffers.  These are the outlawed
>>>> bulbs.  Or they can be designed with a light filament that runs hot and
>>>> puts out more light per watt.  In theory, such a bulb can be made to comply
>>>> with EISA.  The problem is that light, hot-running filament will burn out
>>>> very rapidly.  It is at least possible that the convenience-store bulbs are
>>>> of this nature.
>>>> 
>>>> Halogens are interesting because they a light, hot filament that resists
>>>> burnout because the halogen gases (such as Argon, Krypton, etc) actually
>>>> hold the tungsten molecules and allow them to re-plate back onto the
>>>> filament, basically recycling them, instead of letting the filament erode.
>>>> That is the basic magic of halogen bulbs.
>>>> 
>>>> SO
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 11:32 AM, charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Steve I don't doubt what you are saying but you seem to doubt everything
>>>>> I say.  I'm telling you the man is selling old style incandescent bulbs.
>>>>> I
>>>>> don't
>>>>> know how he gets them or if they are legal but they are NOT halogen,
>>>>> disguised or not.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Charlie
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Stephen Offiler
>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 9:29 PM
>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you, Ken.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Charlie, I merely stated a few facts regarding 100W incandescents.
>>>>> Nothing
>>>>> I said was intended to argue against anything you said.  You are reading
>>>>> way too much into this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would go on to explain the concept of efficacy in lighting, and how
>>>> much
>>>>> it varies with incandescents of the conventional as well as the halogen
>>>>> variety, and how you can still design a conventional (non-halogen) 100W
>>>>> incan but there's no free lunch; if it meets government regulations its
>>>>> life will be a small fraction of what you'd call reasonable.  But I'll
>>>>> stop
>>>>> here to keep the peace.
>>>>> 
>>>>> SO
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Ken Knierim <ken.knierim at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Charlie, please ease up. Steve is a talented, detail-oriented engineer
>>>>> and
>>>>>> he's correct. halogen lamps are a type of incandescent light.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halogen_lamp
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Rough service bulbs can still be made here in the US last I knew. It's
>>>> a
>>>>>> corner case they allowed for awhile.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In Arizona the ballasts in the CFL's do NOT like the heat and die
>>>>>> frequently. And don't break one or you have mercury to deal with.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Since I (may) sell and service semiconductor equipment for Cree I am
>>>>>> partial to their hardware (can't say for certain due to lawyers of
>>>>>> course),
>>>>>> but any new technology will have its warts. The Phillips/Lumileds parts
>>>>>> seem to be rated for higher temp operation and that's important for
>>>>>> outdoor
>>>>>> lighting here. The Feit Electric (chinese) parts have a higher failure
>>>>>> rate
>>>>>> in my limited tested.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ken in AZ
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:50 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Charlie, are they by any chance what they refer to as a heavy duty or
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> rough service bulb? I know they can still make those legally. I got
>>>> so
>>>>>>> tired of the florescent squiggly bulbs in our barn, try feeding
>>>> horses
>>>>>>> at 4 AM, when it's 0 degrees outside, all I would get is a faint
>>>> glow.
>>>>>>> Replaced all the bulbs with _300 watt_ incandescent bulbs, now I
>>>>>>> actually see and work on my tan.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mike M
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 11/4/2016 6:22 PM, charlie hill wrote:
>>>>>>>> There you go again Steve.  I TOLD YOU IT IS A 100 WATT INCANDESCENT
>>>>>> BULB.
>>>>>>>> Did I say anything about a halogen bulb inside a incandescent
>>>>>>>> envelope?
>>>>>>>> I know you think I'm stupid but give it a break man.  Do you have
>>>> to
>>>>>>> argue
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> EVERYTHING anyone says to you??????????????????????????????
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Stephen Offiler
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 5:47 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The act of Congress that imposed efficiency restrictions on
>>>>>>>> lighting,
>>>>>>>> effectively outlawing those old-school 100 watt incandescent bulbs,
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> signed into law by President Bush in 2007.  It's called the EISA,
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Energy Independence and Security Act.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It is possible to manufacture a 100-watt bulb that meets EISA, with
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> halogen bulb inside a normal incandescent glass envelope.  It would
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> cheaper to manufacture this design in low-labor-cost countries such
>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> China.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Why does my local power company  subsidize the purchase of LED
>>>>>>>> bulbs?
>>>>>>>> Seems backward, doesn't it?  They are going to be selling me less
>>>>>>>> electricity.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> SO
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