[AT] OT LED question

Sun Nov 6 16:36:17 PST 2016

This is the first time I have seen a discussion of this topic in more than 40 years.  My father was a design engineer for GE for most of his career, and he used to describe this process to me.  (Feeling nostalgic here.)

Larry
---- Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote: 
> That's very interesting, Herb!  I know zero about tungsten metallurgy, but
> it certainly sounds like they were worried about something at the ingot
> level, something like impurity levels perhaps.
> 
> Accelerated life testing of incandescents is pretty easy.  Just boost the
> voltage.  There is a very strong, but also very predictable, life reduction
> at elevated voltages.  I found this graph that puts it all together pretty
> nicely.  You can see several things here; for example, see how the efficacy
> increases at elevated voltage (chart says efficacy is up 20% for a 10%
> voltage increase)  and life is cut by about 2/3 at that same point.  With
> voltage up 20%, life is shortened by over 90%.  You can life-test a 2000-hr
> bulb and get answers in less than a week.
> 
> http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Documents/IN%20Voltage.htm
> 
> SO
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Herb Metz <metz-h.b at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > Stephen's post is interesting, and as always, informative.  Decades ago
> > (1960's), when I was an engineer at GE (Appliance Control Dept), we had a
> > tour of a GE lighting manufacturing facility.  Even though their ingots for
> > bulb filament were special, as one would expect, they would make a short
> > production run of bulbs from each ingot (this was my understanding at that
> > time), then accelerate life test these bulbs before using that ingot.
> > Looking back, wish someone would have questioned: accelerated test method,
> > number of filaments/ingot (1,000's, maybe millions), criteria for
> > determining if ingot was useable, etc.  I have no idea as to when GE
> > started
> > large scale manufacturing of incandescant bulbs; nor how long they
> > continued
> > this above practice. Herb(GA)
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message-----
> > From: Stephen Offiler
> > Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2016 6:53 AM
> > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
> >
> > Charlie, I do not believe I expressed or implied ANY doubt about your
> > convenience-store 100W bulbs.  What I posted was the details of the Act of
> > Congress that created this situation, not exclusively directed at you, but
> > also for the others on the list who might be interested in what happened to
> > the incandescent bulb.  I also mentioned one way (did not say it was the
> > ONLY way) an EISA compliant 100W incandescent can be built (halogen).
> >
> > Draw your own conclusions, everyone.  Are old-school incandescent bulbs
> > actually still legal?  Well, if labeled "Rough Service" the answer is yes.
> >   Is Charlie's convenience store selling legal bulbs?  Are there other ways
> > to make a legal 100W bulb?  That question is interesting and I've commented
> > a bit on that too.  The Act requires increased efficiency, which in
> > lighting engineering is called efficacy.  It is lumens (light quantity)
> > divided by the electricity in watts needed to create that light.
> >
> > An incandescent bulb can be designed with a heavy filament that runs cooler
> > and resists burning out, but the efficacy suffers.  These are the outlawed
> > bulbs.  Or they can be designed with a light filament that runs hot and
> > puts out more light per watt.  In theory, such a bulb can be made to comply
> > with EISA.  The problem is that light, hot-running filament will burn out
> > very rapidly.  It is at least possible that the convenience-store bulbs are
> > of this nature.
> >
> > Halogens are interesting because they a light, hot filament that resists
> > burnout because the halogen gases (such as Argon, Krypton, etc) actually
> > hold the tungsten molecules and allow them to re-plate back onto the
> > filament, basically recycling them, instead of letting the filament erode.
> > That is the basic magic of halogen bulbs.
> >
> > SO
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 11:32 AM, charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Steve I don't doubt what you are saying but you seem to doubt everything
> > > I say.  I'm telling you the man is selling old style incandescent bulbs.
> > > I
> > > don't
> > > know how he gets them or if they are legal but they are NOT halogen,
> > > disguised or not.
> > >
> > > Charlie
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Stephen Offiler
> > > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 9:29 PM
> > > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > > Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
> > >
> > > Thank you, Ken.
> > >
> > > Charlie, I merely stated a few facts regarding 100W incandescents.
> > > Nothing
> > > I said was intended to argue against anything you said.  You are reading
> > > way too much into this.
> > >
> > > I would go on to explain the concept of efficacy in lighting, and how
> > much
> > > it varies with incandescents of the conventional as well as the halogen
> > > variety, and how you can still design a conventional (non-halogen) 100W
> > > incan but there's no free lunch; if it meets government regulations its
> > > life will be a small fraction of what you'd call reasonable.  But I'll
> > > stop
> > > here to keep the peace.
> > >
> > > SO
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Ken Knierim <ken.knierim at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Charlie, please ease up. Steve is a talented, detail-oriented engineer
> > > and
> > > > he's correct. halogen lamps are a type of incandescent light.
> > > >
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halogen_lamp
> > > >
> > > > Rough service bulbs can still be made here in the US last I knew. It's
> > a
> > > > corner case they allowed for awhile.
> > > >
> > > > In Arizona the ballasts in the CFL's do NOT like the heat and die
> > > > frequently. And don't break one or you have mercury to deal with.
> > > >
> > > > Since I (may) sell and service semiconductor equipment for Cree I am
> > > > partial to their hardware (can't say for certain due to lawyers of
> > > > course),
> > > > but any new technology will have its warts. The Phillips/Lumileds parts
> > > > seem to be rated for higher temp operation and that's important for
> > > > outdoor
> > > > lighting here. The Feit Electric (chinese) parts have a higher failure
> > > > rate
> > > > in my limited tested.
> > > >
> > > > Ken in AZ
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:50 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Charlie, are they by any chance what they refer to as a heavy duty or
> > > > > a
> > > > > rough service bulb? I know they can still make those legally. I got
> > so
> > > > > tired of the florescent squiggly bulbs in our barn, try feeding
> > horses
> > > > > at 4 AM, when it's 0 degrees outside, all I would get is a faint
> > glow.
> > > > > Replaced all the bulbs with _300 watt_ incandescent bulbs, now I
> > > > > actually see and work on my tan.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike M
> > > > >
> > > > > On 11/4/2016 6:22 PM, charlie hill wrote:
> > > > > > There you go again Steve.  I TOLD YOU IT IS A 100 WATT INCANDESCENT
> > > > BULB.
> > > > > > Did I say anything about a halogen bulb inside a incandescent
> > > > > > envelope?
> > > > > > I know you think I'm stupid but give it a break man.  Do you have
> > to
> > > > > argue
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > EVERYTHING anyone says to you??????????????????????????????
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Charlie
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Stephen Offiler
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 5:47 PM
> > > > > > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The act of Congress that imposed efficiency restrictions on
> > > > > > lighting,
> > > > > > effectively outlawing those old-school 100 watt incandescent bulbs,
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > signed into law by President Bush in 2007.  It's called the EISA,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > Energy Independence and Security Act.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is possible to manufacture a 100-watt bulb that meets EISA, with
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > halogen bulb inside a normal incandescent glass envelope.  It would
> > > be
> > > > > > cheaper to manufacture this design in low-labor-cost countries such
> > > as
> > > > > > China.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why does my local power company  subsidize the purchase of LED
> > > > > > bulbs?
> > > > > > Seems backward, doesn't it?  They are going to be selling me less
> > > > > > electricity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > SO
> >
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