[AT] OT LED question

[Herb Metz]

Stephen's post is interesting, and as always, informative.  Decades ago 
(1960's), when I was an engineer at GE (Appliance Control Dept), we had a 
tour of a GE lighting manufacturing facility.  Even though their ingots for 
bulb filament were special, as one would expect, they would make a short 
production run of bulbs from each ingot (this was my understanding at that 
time), then accelerate life test these bulbs before using that ingot. 
Looking back, wish someone would have questioned: accelerated test method, 
number of filaments/ingot (1,000's, maybe millions), criteria for 
determining if ingot was useable, etc.  I have no idea as to when GE started 
large scale manufacturing of incandescant bulbs; nor how long they continued 
this above practice. Herb(GA)


----Original Message----- 
From: Stephen Offiler
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2016 6:53 AM
To: Antique tractor email discussion group
Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question

Charlie, I do not believe I expressed or implied ANY doubt about your
convenience-store 100W bulbs.  What I posted was the details of the Act of
Congress that created this situation, not exclusively directed at you, but
also for the others on the list who might be interested in what happened to
the incandescent bulb.  I also mentioned one way (did not say it was the
ONLY way) an EISA compliant 100W incandescent can be built (halogen).

Draw your own conclusions, everyone.  Are old-school incandescent bulbs
actually still legal?  Well, if labeled "Rough Service" the answer is yes.
  Is Charlie's convenience store selling legal bulbs?  Are there other ways
to make a legal 100W bulb?  That question is interesting and I've commented
a bit on that too.  The Act requires increased efficiency, which in
lighting engineering is called efficacy.  It is lumens (light quantity)
divided by the electricity in watts needed to create that light.

An incandescent bulb can be designed with a heavy filament that runs cooler
and resists burning out, but the efficacy suffers.  These are the outlawed
bulbs.  Or they can be designed with a light filament that runs hot and
puts out more light per watt.  In theory, such a bulb can be made to comply
with EISA.  The problem is that light, hot-running filament will burn out
very rapidly.  It is at least possible that the convenience-store bulbs are
of this nature.

Halogens are interesting because they a light, hot filament that resists
burnout because the halogen gases (such as Argon, Krypton, etc) actually
hold the tungsten molecules and allow them to re-plate back onto the
filament, basically recycling them, instead of letting the filament erode.
That is the basic magic of halogen bulbs.

SO


On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 11:32 AM, charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
wrote:

> Steve I don't doubt what you are saying but you seem to doubt everything
> I say.  I'm telling you the man is selling old style incandescent bulbs. 
> I
> don't
> know how he gets them or if they are legal but they are NOT halogen,
> disguised or not.
>
> Charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Offiler
> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 9:29 PM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
>
> Thank you, Ken.
>
> Charlie, I merely stated a few facts regarding 100W incandescents. 
> Nothing
> I said was intended to argue against anything you said.  You are reading
> way too much into this.
>
> I would go on to explain the concept of efficacy in lighting, and how much
> it varies with incandescents of the conventional as well as the halogen
> variety, and how you can still design a conventional (non-halogen) 100W
> incan but there's no free lunch; if it meets government regulations its
> life will be a small fraction of what you'd call reasonable.  But I'll 
> stop
> here to keep the peace.
>
> SO
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Ken Knierim <ken.knierim at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Charlie, please ease up. Steve is a talented, detail-oriented engineer
> and
> > he's correct. halogen lamps are a type of incandescent light.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halogen_lamp
> >
> > Rough service bulbs can still be made here in the US last I knew. It's a
> > corner case they allowed for awhile.
> >
> > In Arizona the ballasts in the CFL's do NOT like the heat and die
> > frequently. And don't break one or you have mercury to deal with.
> >
> > Since I (may) sell and service semiconductor equipment for Cree I am
> > partial to their hardware (can't say for certain due to lawyers of
> > course),
> > but any new technology will have its warts. The Phillips/Lumileds parts
> > seem to be rated for higher temp operation and that's important for
> > outdoor
> > lighting here. The Feit Electric (chinese) parts have a higher failure
> > rate
> > in my limited tested.
> >
> > Ken in AZ
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:50 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Charlie, are they by any chance what they refer to as a heavy duty or 
> > > a
> > > rough service bulb? I know they can still make those legally. I got so
> > > tired of the florescent squiggly bulbs in our barn, try feeding horses
> > > at 4 AM, when it's 0 degrees outside, all I would get is a faint glow.
> > > Replaced all the bulbs with _300 watt_ incandescent bulbs, now I
> > > actually see and work on my tan.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Mike M
> > >
> > > On 11/4/2016 6:22 PM, charlie hill wrote:
> > > > There you go again Steve.  I TOLD YOU IT IS A 100 WATT INCANDESCENT
> > BULB.
> > > > Did I say anything about a halogen bulb inside a incandescent
> > > > envelope?
> > > > I know you think I'm stupid but give it a break man.  Do you have to
> > > argue
> > > > with
> > > > EVERYTHING anyone says to you??????????????????????????????
> > > >
> > > > Charlie
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Stephen Offiler
> > > > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 5:47 PM
> > > > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > > > Subject: Re: [AT] OT LED question
> > > >
> > > > The act of Congress that imposed efficiency restrictions on 
> > > > lighting,
> > > > effectively outlawing those old-school 100 watt incandescent bulbs,
> > > > was
> > > > signed into law by President Bush in 2007.  It's called the EISA, 
> > > > the
> > > > Energy Independence and Security Act.
> > > >
> > > > It is possible to manufacture a 100-watt bulb that meets EISA, with 
> > > > a
> > > > halogen bulb inside a normal incandescent glass envelope.  It would
> be
> > > > cheaper to manufacture this design in low-labor-cost countries such
> as
> > > > China.
> > > >
> > > > Why does my local power company  subsidize the purchase of LED 
> > > > bulbs?
> > > > Seems backward, doesn't it?  They are going to be selling me less
> > > > electricity.
> > > >
> > > > SO