[AT] Need help with newer compact tractor
Stephen Offiler
soffiler at gmail.com
Tue May 24 13:39:20 PDT 2016
I happened across an intellingent discussion on "bobistheoilguy.com"
regarding the additive package in the Traveller fluid. Somebody had it
tested, and it proved to be rather disappointing. Exactly as you said
Mike. Hard to make it both good and cheap.
SO
On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
> Thanks Steve, got my tractor back today, all fixed with no leaks. I
> think the Traveller fluid is probably fine, but I'm going to replace it
> with Mobilfluid 424 anyway just to know that I have a top quality fluid
> in the tractor. I think sometimes the additive packages in the less
> expensive fluids may suffer, it's hard to sell cheap and good. They
> could not find the reason why the o-rings in the power steering block
> had failed. They did say that a lot of loader work, and pinning the
> steering wheel to the stops can cause increased temperatures in that
> area. I have done a tremendous amount of loader work with the tractor,
> so that could be the case I will be more mindful of that in the future,
> although I know I don't make a habit of doing it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike M
>
> On 5/24/2016 5:28 AM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
> > Hey Mike, back to Traveller fluid for a minute. I emailed TSC yesterday
> > asking for detailed specifications and MSDS. They responded very
> promptly
> > but only sent the MSDS. I was hoping to drive the last nail on that
> > viscosity thing, but to no avail. Nothing I could find useful in the
> MSDS,
> > not even the real manufacturer. It lists... TSC themselves in the Mfg.
> > category. It's PDF and I can forward it to anyone interested but I don't
> > think I can't post it here.
> >
> > SO
> >
> >
> > On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
> >
> >> That started with the 2011 model line up as far as I know. I'll double
> >> check my manual though. Should have just stuck with the M1 synthetic, I
> >> plan to drive this truck until it's only good for parts.
> >>
> >> Mike M
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 5/23/2016 9:48 AM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
> >>> Mike, does that 6.2 require Dexos oil?
> >>>
> >>> SO
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Funny you should say that Cecil, my daily driver is a 2010 Chevy 1500
> >>>> 6.2 gasser. I usually run 5/30 Mobil 1 Synthetic in it and have since
> >>>> it was new to me with 45,000 miles on it. It now has 88,000 miles on
> it
> >>>> and needed the oil changed. I do it myself because everything is
> really
> >>>> easy to get to . This time however I went with Pennzoil 5/30 regular
> >>>> oil, because it was on sale. I had knee surgery on Monday, so my wife
> >>>> has had to drive me around. Now when it's cold and I get in the
> >>>> passenger side I hear what appears to be a rod knock or piston slap,
> not
> >>>> bad, but enough that I noticed. I'm just wondering if it's always been
> >>>> there, and I've never heard it because I was in the cab when I started
> >>>> it, or if it's new because of the oil. I've never had any problem with
> >>>> Pennzoil in fact my small engines love the stuff.
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike M
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 5/22/2016 7:09 PM, Cecil Bearden wrote:
> >>>>> The oil that I checked on through the API website was classified as
> >>>>> being from new oil. The re-run is listed as from recycled oil.
> Warren
> >>>>> now cans way too much oil to be only a re-refiner. I think they
> >> bottle
> >>>>> nearly 75% of the retail oil. That said, I put Valvoline Nextgen
> >> 10w-30
> >>>>> in my replacement engine in my f-150 to flush out whatever was in
> >> there,
> >>>>> and 3000 miles later it had to go to the shop for a noise we thought
> >> was
> >>>>> the A/C clutch and I had the guy change the oil while it was there
> >>>>> because the filter is nearly impossible to get to. I had my own oil
> in
> >>>>> the back and he put in some O'reilly parts house oil 5w-30 and it
> >>>>> knocked every time I started it. I had to add a qt of Lucas oil to
> >>>>> stop the knock. It was at the level mark after 2000 miles.. I
> >>>>> replaced it with some more Nextgen and it does not use nor leak oil
> >>>>> after another 4000 miles of some high speed driving. It needs
> >> changing
> >>>>> now and is still at the full mark.... I bought about 15 5qt jugs of
> >>>>> that oil at O'reilly auto parts for $3 a jug. I was going to use it
> >> for
> >>>>> cheap hyd fluid etc, but it turned out to be ok for that truck so I
> >> just
> >>>>> keep it for that one...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cecil in OKla
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 5/22/2016 1:19 PM, charlie hill wrote:
> >>>>>> Cecil, Warren Petroleum is based in Dunn, North Carolina (or were
> >>>> anyway).
> >>>>>> About 30 years ago when they were a much smaller company
> >>>>>> I had the transmission fluid changed in a Chevy pickup. When I
> >>>>>> went to pick the truck up he was just finishing and I saw the empty
> >>>>>> oil jugs on the bench. They were the wrong oil. I forget which one
> >>>>>> but not Dexron. I got on the guy and he swore there was no
> >> difference.
> >>>>>> I knew he was wrong, or lying, and took the truck to another shop
> and
> >>>>>> had the fluid changed again. But, just to prove to myself that I was
> >>>> right
> >>>>>> I called Warren Oil. I told you all of that to tell you this.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> When I called they actually put Mr. Warren on the phone. I've never
> >>>> been
> >>>>>> more
> >>>>>> impressed by someone I called on the phone. He took the time to
> tell
> >>>> me in
> >>>>>> great detail all about the different grades of ATF and went on to
> tell
> >>>> me
> >>>>>> about his
> >>>>>> company. They are a re-processor of used oil but unless they have
> >>>> changed
> >>>>>> they
> >>>>>> do so with great care and attention to quality. I have no problem
> >> with
> >>>>>> anything they
> >>>>>> make.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I say they are a re-processor. That was a long time ago and
> >>>>>> I don't know if they have "graduated" into manufacture from raw
> >>>> materials or
> >>>>>> not.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Charlie
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Cecil Bearden
> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 11:05 PM
> >>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help with newer compact tractor
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Mike:
> >>>>>> I wrestle with the oil price thing every day with so many engines
> and
> >>>>>> systems I have here, and the lack of funds. I really don't think
> >> that
> >>>>>> one can know enough about the oil he uses. I have found a good
> >> motor
> >>>>>> oil ( Ranch Pro bottled by Warren Petroleum ) at the local farm
> store
> >>>>>> and it has proven to be better than Mystic that I used for many
> years.
> >>>>>> I really do not trust Mystic products like I once did. They just do
> >> not
> >>>>>> seem to be as good since Total bought them.. I also do use any
> >>>>>> hydraulic oil additive in my Hydrostatic drives. I was severely
> >>>>>> admonished for it by the hydrostat rebuilder when I talked to
> them....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cecil in OKla
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 5/21/2016 6:03 PM, Mike M wrote:
> >>>>>>> Thanks Cecil, I think we're getting to the bottom of this, as soon
> as
> >>>> my
> >>>>>>> tractor gets home, I'm dropping the fluid and re-filling with Gulf
> or
> >>>>>>> other higher quality equivalent. What seems expensive now will be
> >> cheap
> >>>>>>> once the tractor is out of warranty.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Mike M
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 5/21/2016 5:45 PM, Cecil Bearden wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Mike:
> >>>>>>>> That TSC oil states it is a multi grace or multi Vis. I found
> >>>> somewhere
> >>>>>>>> it was a 10W30 or 40, If so, and the viscosity improvers are
> working
> >>>>>>>> correctly or maybe a little more concentrated, then the viscosity
> >>>> could
> >>>>>>>> be too thick at the higher heat. That 400 SUS is at 100F, while
> the
> >>>>>>>> others are specified at 100C, another 112 deg F higher...... I
> had
> >>>>>>>> this same problem with the hydrostat trans in my old JD2750
> Swather.
> >>>> I
> >>>>>>>> found out later that the transmission is no longer available nor
> >>>>>>>> repairable. I had to buy a used one. The "yellow Bucket" THF I
> >>>> bought
> >>>>>>>> for $19.99 was too thick for the system. This I was told by the
> >>>> company
> >>>>>>>> rep who used to overhaul these transmissions made by Vickers. I
> >>>> bought
> >>>>>>>> John Deere Hytran that replaces the original 303 fluid. It
> surely
> >>>> does
> >>>>>>>> sound like your oil is overheating. You may have a good civil
> case
> >>>>>>>> against TSC, but chances of getting any results within our
> lifetime
> >>>> are
> >>>>>>>> slim and none.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I had an 1155 V-8 Massey that was a good 130hp tractor,
> but
> >> we
> >>>> had
> >>>>>>>> some leaks in the rear lift cylinders. My Dad topped off the
> lift
> >>>> oil
> >>>>>>>> with a barrel of Lathe and Milling machine Way oil I had bought
> >>>> surplus
> >>>>>>>> from a retired machinist for $250. That oil was over $35/gal in
> a
> >>>> drum
> >>>>>>>> at the time. It had an extra stickiness. The entire hydraulic
> >> system
> >>>>>>>> turned to crap and it would barely move anything. It started
> >> leaking
> >>>> at
> >>>>>>>> every seal. My retired father was just too busy to drive 10
> miles
> >> to
> >>>>>>>> buy a $25 bucket of the cheap stuff that would have worked fine..
> >> It
> >>>>>>>> was my fault according to him because I did not hide the barrel
> from
> >>>>>>>> him!!!! It was marked in 4 inch letters WAY OIL ! We ended up
> >>>>>>>> selling the tractor for $2000 to the Mexican market.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I use that yellow bucket stuff in my old dozers and trackhoe. I
> >> have
> >>>>>>>> noticed that if you open the bucket the additives are concentrated
> >> at
> >>>>>>>> the bottom. I try to turn the bucket over for an hour before I
> >> pour
> >>>> it
> >>>>>>>> into the tank....
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cecil in OKla
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 5/21/2016 12:42 PM, Mike M wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Cecil, I think you and Steve might be on to something with the
> >>>>>>>>> viscosity. I wish the Traveller brand oil would give me the
> >>>> Centistokes
> >>>>>>>>> value at 100C and I suspect I could call on Monday and find out.
> >>>> Because
> >>>>>>>>> I've noticed a lack in hydraulic power the service guy adjusted
> the
> >>>>>>>>> pressure to 2900 lbs, which is over the 2700 Mahindra calls for.
> >> He's
> >>>>>>>>> not concerned with that as long as the bypass isn't being
> tripped.
> >> I
> >>>>>>>>> think a change in oil may be in order. If the pump is hunting for
> >>>> oil it
> >>>>>>>>> could be introducing air into the system. I managed to find the
> >> Gulf
> >>>>>>>>> product at a local Autozone store of all places.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Mike M
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 5/21/2016 1:07 PM, Cecil Bearden wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> I looked up some viscosity sites, and 20w motor oil is 68
> >>>> centistokes
> >>>>>>>>>> and 30w is 100 centistokes. 57.5 would be closer to 10W motor
> >> oil
> >>>>>>>>>> which is what my old Ingersoll compressor calls for or Dexron
> ATF
> >> or
> >>>>>>>>>> type A transmission fluid. So, I would be thinking that the oil
> is
> >>>> too
> >>>>>>>>>> thick and the pump is scavenging and giving you a mixture of oil
> >> and
> >>>>>>>>>> air
> >>>>>>>>>> which can do weird things to rubber components at high pressure.
> >>>> We
> >>>>>>>>>> also do not know if this tractor works at 3000 psi or 1500
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Cecil in OKla
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/21/2016 7:26 AM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Mike:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> When fluids are REALLY different, they can certainly eat up
> >> seals.
> >>>>>>>>>>> But the
> >>>>>>>>>>> magnitude of difference I am talking about is like the
> difference
> >>>>>>>>>>> between
> >>>>>>>>>>> brake fluid and petroleum-based oils. For example: DOT 3,
> 4,
> >>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> 5.1
> >>>>>>>>>>> require EPDM rubber for seals. But if EPDM sees petroleum, it
> >>>> softens
> >>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> swells... like 25% or more. Like a frost heave, this swelling
> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> impossible to contain. It extrudes itself right out the
> glands.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> For this to be the case, what came out of that TSC pail would
> >> have
> >>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>>>>>> pretty wrong, is my gut feel. But someone could have really
> >>>> screwed
> >>>>>>>>>>> up at
> >>>>>>>>>>> the factory I suppose... in that case you would not be the only
> >> one
> >>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>> problems!
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Is this the fluid you put in?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/traveller-universal-tractor-trans-hydraulic-fluid-5-gal
> >>>>>>>>>>> One thing to note here is the viscosity. TSC fluid specs 400
> >>>> Saybolt
> >>>>>>>>>>> Universal Seconds (SUS or SSU) at 100F (38C). An online
> >> calculator
> >>>>>>>>>>> tells
> >>>>>>>>>>> me 400 SUS is 86.2 Centistokes. They SHOULD, but fail, to say
> >>>>>>>>>>> anything
> >>>>>>>>>>> about viscosity index and viscosity at elevated temperature
> 100C.
> >>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>> then
> >>>>>>>>>>> looked up the Gulf fluid you mentioned, one that Mahindra
> >>>> specifically
> >>>>>>>>>>> calls for, and find it is 57.5 CentiStokes at 40C. Whoa. 57.5
> >> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> pretty
> >>>>>>>>>>> different from 86.2.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Not sure what to make of all this and nothing I'm saying here
> is
> >>>> real
> >>>>>>>>>>> definitive, just trying to shed some more light on the
> situation.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> SO
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So about a year ago I bought a Mahindra 4035 40 HP diesel
> >>>> tractor. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> starts, runs and works fine, but I've had some problems with
> >> leaks
> >>>>>>>>>>>> lately. At the 100 hour mark Mahindra wanted me to change the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> hydraulic
> >>>>>>>>>>>> filter, which sits on the side of the rear housing. I talked
> to
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> service guy at the dealership and he said I'd lose about 2
> >>>> gallons of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> fluid when I did that, even with the one rear tire up on a
> >> block.
> >>>> It
> >>>>>>>>>>>> holds 10 gallons overall, and TSC had their premium universal
> >>>>>>>>>>>> hydraulic/transmission fluid on sale (which states it meets or
> >>>> exceed
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Mahindra specs) for $35 for 5 gallons. For me it seemed like
> a
> >> no
> >>>>>>>>>>>> brainer to just dump the fluid and replace it rather that
> trying
> >>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> guess how much I'd lose.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Everything went fine, I had to remove a side cover as well as
> >> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> filter
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to get to a screen they wanted to have cleaned on the first
> >>>> service
> >>>>>>>>>>>> only. After that the tractor performed as it should but after
> >>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 50
> >>>>>>>>>>>> hours I've started to develop leaks in the hydraulic system.
> >> They
> >>>>>>>>>>>> fixed
> >>>>>>>>>>>> one by a large square diverter valve under the tractor and
> today
> >>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>>>> are fixing another leak from the power steering block up by
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> steering
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wheel. I called today and talked to the service guy and he
> says
> >>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>>>> are puzzled because the leaking o-rings they are looking at
> >> today
> >>>>>>>>>>>> appear
> >>>>>>>>>>>> burned, as if exposed to excessive heat. Another concern that
> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> brought
> >>>>>>>>>>>> up to them is that the loader doesn't seem to have quite the
> >>>> lifting
> >>>>>>>>>>>> capacity as when it was new.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> My question is, can fluid cause these type of problems? In the
> >>>> manual
> >>>>>>>>>>>> they call our for Mahindra fluid, Gulf Universal Tractor
> >>>> Transmission
> >>>>>>>>>>>> fluid, Mobil 424, Shell Donax and a few others, all of which
> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> nearly
> >>>>>>>>>>>> impossible to find. Can a fluid be SO wrong that it would
> cause
> >>>>>>>>>>>> problems? Right now they are looking at anything that might be
> >>>>>>>>>>>> causing a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> continual "deadheading" situation, but with that little 3
> >> cylinder
> >>>>>>>>>>>> diesel I think I would notice that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Any and all thoughts greatly appreciated.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Mike M
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
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