[AT] Need help with newer compact tractor

charlie hill charliehill at embarqmail.com
Tue May 24 09:49:45 PDT 2016 

By the way, even though I stand by what I said about the people at Warren 
being
good folks, I don't use their engine oil products in vehicles I care about. 
Generally
I use Castrol or Mobil in Synthetic or synthetic blends.   From my 
experience the
synthetic oil pays for it's self in fuel mileage even if engine life is the 
same.
I didn't write this to start a which oil is best thread.  I'm just saying I 
stick with
popular, main stream brands.

Charlie

-----Original Message----- 
From: Cecil Bearden
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 7:09 PM
To: Antique tractor email discussion group
Subject: Re: [AT] Need help with newer compact tractor

The oil that I checked on through the API website was classified as
being from new oil.  The re-run is listed as from recycled oil.  Warren
now cans way too much oil to be only a re-refiner.   I think they bottle
nearly 75% of the retail oil.  That said, I put Valvoline Nextgen 10w-30
in my replacement engine in my f-150 to flush out whatever was in there,
and 3000 miles later it had to go to the shop for a noise we thought was
the A/C clutch and I had the guy change the oil while it was there
because the filter is nearly impossible to get to. I had my own oil in
the back and he put in some O'reilly parts house oil 5w-30 and it
knocked every time I started it.   I had to add a qt of Lucas oil to
stop the knock.    It was at the level mark after 2000 miles..  I
replaced it with some more Nextgen and it does not use nor leak oil
after another 4000 miles of some high speed driving.   It needs changing
now and is still at the full mark....   I bought about 15 5qt jugs of
that oil at O'reilly auto parts for $3 a jug.  I was going to use it for
cheap hyd fluid etc, but it turned out to be ok for that truck so I just
keep it for that one...

Cecil in OKla


On 5/22/2016 1:19 PM, charlie hill wrote:
> Cecil,  Warren Petroleum is based in Dunn, North Carolina (or were 
> anyway).
> About 30 years ago when they were a much smaller company
> I had the transmission fluid changed in a Chevy pickup. When I
> went to pick the truck up he was just finishing and I saw the empty
> oil jugs on the bench.  They were the wrong oil.  I forget which one
> but not Dexron.  I got on the guy and he swore there was no difference.
> I knew he was wrong, or lying, and took the truck to another shop and
> had the fluid changed again. But, just to prove to myself that I was right
> I called Warren Oil.  I told you all of that to tell you this.
>
> When I called they actually put Mr. Warren on the phone.  I've never been
> more
> impressed by someone I called on the phone.  He took the time to tell me 
> in
> great detail all about the different grades of ATF and went on to tell me
> about his
> company.  They are a re-processor of used oil but unless they have changed
> they
> do so with great care and attention to quality.  I have no problem with
> anything they
> make.
>
> I say they are a re-processor.  That was a long time ago and
> I don't know if they have "graduated" into manufacture from raw materials 
> or
> not.
>
> Charlie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cecil Bearden
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 11:05 PM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] Need help with newer compact tractor
>
> Mike:
> I wrestle with the oil price thing every day with so many engines and
> systems I have here, and the lack of funds.   I really don't think that
> one can know enough about the  oil he uses.   I have found  a good motor
> oil ( Ranch Pro bottled by Warren Petroleum ) at the local farm store
> and it has proven to be better than Mystic that I used for many years.
> I really do not trust Mystic products like I once did.  They just do not
> seem to be as good since Total bought them..  I also do use any
> hydraulic oil additive in my Hydrostatic drives.   I was severely
> admonished for it by the hydrostat rebuilder when I talked to them....
>
> Cecil in OKla
>
>
> On 5/21/2016 6:03 PM, Mike M wrote:
>> Thanks Cecil, I think we're getting to the bottom of this, as soon as my
>> tractor gets home, I'm dropping the fluid and re-filling with Gulf or
>> other higher quality equivalent. What seems expensive now will be cheap
>> once the tractor is out of warranty.
>>
>> Mike M
>>
>> On 5/21/2016 5:45 PM, Cecil Bearden wrote:
>>> Mike:
>>> That TSC oil states it is a multi grace or multi Vis.  I found somewhere
>>> it was a 10W30 or 40, If so, and the viscosity improvers are working
>>> correctly or maybe a little more concentrated, then the viscosity could
>>> be too thick at the higher heat.  That 400 SUS is at 100F, while the
>>> others are specified at 100C, another 112 deg F higher......   I had
>>> this same problem with the hydrostat trans in my old JD2750 Swather.  I
>>> found out later that the transmission is no longer available nor
>>> repairable.  I had to buy a used one.   The "yellow Bucket" THF I bought
>>> for $19.99 was too thick for the system.  This I was told by the company
>>> rep who used to overhaul these transmissions made by Vickers.  I bought
>>> John Deere  Hytran that replaces the original 303 fluid.  It surely does
>>> sound like your oil is overheating.  You may have a good civil case
>>> against TSC, but chances of getting any results within our lifetime are
>>> slim and none.
>>>
>>>      I had an 1155 V-8 Massey that was a good 130hp tractor, but we had
>>> some leaks in the rear lift cylinders.   My Dad topped off the lift oil
>>> with a barrel of Lathe and Milling machine Way oil I had bought surplus
>>> from a retired machinist for $250.   That oil was over $35/gal in a drum
>>> at the time.  It had an extra stickiness. The entire hydraulic system
>>> turned to crap and it would barely move anything.  It started leaking at
>>> every seal.   My retired father was just too busy to drive 10 miles to
>>> buy a $25 bucket of the cheap stuff that would have worked fine..  It
>>> was my fault according to him because I did not hide the barrel from
>>> him!!!! It was marked in 4 inch letters WAY OIL  !    We ended up
>>> selling the tractor for $2000 to the Mexican market.
>>>
>>> I use that yellow bucket stuff in my old dozers and trackhoe.  I have
>>> noticed that if you open the bucket the additives are concentrated at
>>> the bottom.   I try to turn the bucket over for an hour before I pour it
>>> into the tank....
>>>
>>> Cecil in OKla
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/21/2016 12:42 PM, Mike M wrote:
>>>> Cecil, I think you and Steve might be on to something with the
>>>> viscosity. I wish the Traveller brand oil would give me the Centistokes
>>>> value at 100C and I suspect I could call on Monday and find out. 
>>>> Because
>>>> I've noticed a lack in hydraulic power the service guy adjusted the
>>>> pressure to 2900 lbs, which is over the 2700 Mahindra calls for. He's
>>>> not concerned with that as long as the bypass isn't being tripped. I
>>>> think a change in oil may be in order. If the pump is hunting for oil 
>>>> it
>>>> could be introducing air into the system.  I managed to find the Gulf
>>>> product at a local Autozone store of all places.
>>>>
>>>> Mike M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5/21/2016 1:07 PM, Cecil Bearden wrote:
>>>>> I looked up some viscosity sites, and 20w motor oil is 68 centistokes
>>>>> and 30w is 100 centistokes.   57.5 would be closer to 10W motor oil
>>>>> which is what my old Ingersoll compressor calls for or Dexron ATF or
>>>>> type A transmission fluid. So, I would be thinking that the oil is too
>>>>> thick and the pump is scavenging and giving you a mixture of oil and
>>>>> air
>>>>> which can do weird things to rubber components at high pressure.    We
>>>>> also do not know  if this tractor works at 3000 psi or 1500
>>>>>
>>>>> Cecil in OKla
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/21/2016 7:26 AM, Stephen Offiler wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Mike:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When fluids are REALLY different, they can certainly eat up seals.
>>>>>> But the
>>>>>> magnitude of difference I am talking about is like the difference
>>>>>> between
>>>>>> brake fluid and petroleum-based oils.   For example:    DOT 3, 4, and
>>>>>> 5.1
>>>>>> require EPDM rubber for seals.  But if EPDM sees petroleum, it 
>>>>>> softens
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> swells... like 25% or more.  Like a frost heave, this swelling is
>>>>>> impossible to contain.  It extrudes itself right out the glands.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For this to be the case, what came out of that TSC pail would have to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> pretty wrong, is my gut feel.  But someone could have really screwed
>>>>>> up at
>>>>>> the factory I suppose... in that case you would not be the only one
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> problems!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this the fluid you put in?
>>>>>> http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/traveller-universal-tractor-trans-hydraulic-fluid-5-gal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One thing to note here is the viscosity.  TSC fluid specs 400 Saybolt
>>>>>> Universal Seconds (SUS or SSU) at 100F (38C).  An online calculator
>>>>>> tells
>>>>>> me 400 SUS is 86.2 Centistokes.  They SHOULD, but fail, to say
>>>>>> anything
>>>>>> about viscosity index and viscosity at elevated temperature 100C.  I
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> looked up the Gulf fluid you mentioned, one that Mahindra 
>>>>>> specifically
>>>>>> calls for, and find it is 57.5 CentiStokes at 40C.  Whoa.  57.5 is
>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>> different from 86.2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not sure what to make of all this and nothing I'm saying here is real
>>>>>> definitive, just trying to shed some more light on the situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SO
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Mike M <meulenms at gmx.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So about a year ago I bought a Mahindra 4035 40 HP diesel tractor. I
>>>>>>> starts, runs and works fine, but I've had some problems with leaks
>>>>>>> lately. At the 100 hour mark Mahindra wanted me to change the
>>>>>>> hydraulic
>>>>>>> filter, which sits on the side of the rear housing. I talked to the
>>>>>>> service guy at the dealership and he said I'd lose about 2 gallons 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> fluid when I did that, even with the one rear tire up on a block. It
>>>>>>> holds 10 gallons overall, and TSC had their premium universal
>>>>>>> hydraulic/transmission fluid on sale (which states it meets or 
>>>>>>> exceed
>>>>>>> Mahindra specs)  for $35 for 5 gallons. For me it seemed like a no
>>>>>>> brainer to just dump the fluid and replace it rather that trying to
>>>>>>> guess how much I'd lose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everything went fine, I had to remove a side cover as well as the
>>>>>>> filter
>>>>>>> to get to a screen they wanted to have cleaned on the first service
>>>>>>> only. After that the tractor performed as it should but after about
>>>>>>> 50
>>>>>>> hours I've started to develop leaks in the hydraulic system. They
>>>>>>> fixed
>>>>>>> one by a large square diverter valve under the tractor and today 
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> are fixing another leak from the power steering block up by the
>>>>>>> steering
>>>>>>> wheel.  I called today and talked to the service guy and he says 
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> are puzzled because the leaking o-rings they are looking at today
>>>>>>> appear
>>>>>>> burned, as if exposed to excessive heat. Another concern that I
>>>>>>> brought
>>>>>>> up to them is that the loader doesn't seem to have quite the lifting
>>>>>>> capacity as when it was new.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My question is, can fluid cause these type of problems? In the 
>>>>>>> manual
>>>>>>> they call our for Mahindra fluid, Gulf Universal Tractor 
>>>>>>> Transmission
>>>>>>> fluid, Mobil 424, Shell Donax and a few others, all of which are
>>>>>>> nearly
>>>>>>> impossible to find.  Can a fluid be SO wrong that it would cause
>>>>>>> problems? Right now they are looking at anything that might be
>>>>>>> causing a
>>>>>>> continual "deadheading" situation, but with that little 3 cylinder
>>>>>>> diesel I think I would notice that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any and all thoughts greatly appreciated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike M
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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