[AT] Concrete and way off topic now.
Jim Yost
jnyost at yahoo.com
Wed Jan 13 13:39:34 PST 2016
Air entrained is chemically done not compressed air.
Sent from my iPhone
Jim
> On Jan 13, 2016, at 8:32 AM, charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
> Spencer I just read your story after replying to Cecil with a similar story.
> As for entrained air, I had that same experience once aboard MCAS Cherry
> Point.
> I was pouring 550 flex concrete and had to turn down a load for the exact
> same
> reason. Not as big a deal as yours was but it made the concrete truck
> driver
> plenty mad. Didn't even phase the guy that owned the concrete company.
> He had the truck sent back, met it along the road somewhere and somehow
> injected
> air into the mix and sent it back to me. How I don't know but it passed. I
> had an
> engineering company on site doing the testing per the government specs. All
> I know
> is I got it poured and to my knowledge that slab is still there 25 years
> later and still
> in good shape.
>
> Charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ATIS
> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 9:10 PM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: [AT] Concrete and way off topic now.
>
> Your story reminded me of my own nightmare concrete story. Warning. Long
> story ahead:
>
> Originally I was going to college for geophysical engineering, and still
> have a minor in geology. I switched my major to computers. Was a really
> smart decision but that's beside the point of this message.
>
> I worked between semesters for a small materials engineering firm here in
> North Carolina. My job on concrete sites was to make damn sure they never
> add water(you are right Cecil) and do field tests and take samples for lab
> smashing (a lot of fun for those of you that never did it!). One huge job
> required 3% entrained air, no less. My field equipment was coming up
> basically zero. I never gave the green light after the first three trucks
> failed and the concrete trucks started piling up. The contractor and the
> concrete company basically threatened to throw me in the trench and pour
> concrete on me. I called my supervisor, an engineer, and he came out and
> rejected the first six because by now that had been sitting too long. He
> tested the next three, confirmed my results and told everyone to back the
> hell down and drive those trucks offsite or he was calling the state(the
> owner). To this day it's still the greatest example I have ever had of a
> supervisor who had your back.
>
> PS: A huge lawsuit came out if between the state of North Carolina, the
> concrete company and the contractor. Must have settled because I was never
> subpoenaed.
>
> PSS: By the way I was 20 years old at the time and I was plenty scared to
> stand my ground against that angry mob.
>
> PSSS: As I understand it, they use somethings akin to Alka Seltzer to
> create the entrained air.
>
> Spencer Yost
>
>> On Jan 12, 2016, at 8:19 PM, Cecil R Bearden <crbearden at copper.net> wrote:
>>
>> When I built my house in 1985, I did not have the soils engineering
>> experience that I have now. I also did not have the experience with
>> this crappy soil that I have. I picked an old house site on the farm
>> and found the highest spot and cleaned off the topsoil before digging
>> the footing. Then we poured a monolithic slab on top of the footing.
>> The slab is sitting on top of 18inches of sand. I dug through the sand
>> to install the ductwork and plumbing. This way we should never have a
>> problem with water in the ducts. The footing has settled approximately
>> 4 inches over the past 30 years, based upon satellite surveying with
>> State Plane coordinates. There is always the possibility that the
>> USCGS disc has settled, but if so then my house should have raised.
>> The monolithic slab and stem walls are tied to the footing. The entire
>> slab floats on top of the ground.
>>
>> Let me say that my job was to review and approve the design of dams both
>> concrete and earthfill in the state of Oklahoma. This included all the
>> structures needed to operate the dam. I was required to be able to
>> design both earth and concrete structures in order to review the designs
>> submitted. In 1997 we built a 40 x 100 building with a concrete slab
>> with piping in the floor for floor heat. A 6 in waffle type slab sets
>> on 8 inch piers 6 ft deep into shale every 8 ft with a waffle type slab
>> construction. 6 inches of compacted wetted sand with the pipes in the
>> sand, over 10 mil plastic sheeting for water stop. We used 1/2 in
>> reinforcing 18in. on center each way. Contractor and Dad tried to tell
>> me that we did not need that much reinforcing. My calculations said it
>> was a minimum. I had 6% air entrainment with polymers added to make
>> things easier for the cement workers. When the concrete arrived, a local
>> septic tank contractor arrived to help the cement contractor. He
>> started adding water to every truck. When I said it was not needed, Dad
>> said everybody adds water. The slab cracked every 8 ft across the 40
>> ft length. The contractor blamed it on the concrete. The concrete
>> company came out and looked at it and presented us with copies of the
>> delivery ticket that was signed. Every ticket stated that the
>> specifications are not guaranteed if water is added to the mix. When I
>> told Dad we were up that old creek without a paddle, he said Everybody
>> adds water. I had advised the contractor that he did not need to add
>> water since I had ordered the polymer. He was in agreement with me at
>> the start, but the guy who added the water was his buddy..... Dad did
>> not want to get into a lawsuit because he drank coffee with the
>> contractor.
>>
>> I ended up with the reputation in this community as the Engineer who
>> did not know s@@t about concrete! I think that i why engineers do not
>> do work in their own community. The slab did not separate, it is
>> just cracked and it will take on water when you wash the slab. It burns
>> my butt every time I sweep across one of those cracks.
>>
>> When I look at a set of plans, I don't necessarily look at the design as
>> much as I look where the contractor can screw it up!! Then I relate my
>> findings to the engineer. So far I have received many referrals for
>> construction inspection jobs.
>>
>> We have a development a half mile away that I grade the road annually.
>> I cut hay on shares for several years there. I offered to build the
>> pads and do the slab design for the builders there. I was told by 3
>> builders that they pay $275 for site preparation. If I could do it for
>> that, I could do whatever I thought was needed as long as it was not
>> over $275. Also the slab design was one that they used for everything
>> and that is what their warranty insurance carrier had approved and they
>> were not going to change it.
>>
>> The first house ( approx 150K ) built in this development was built on a
>> site that was scraped off and it was a level 5 acres before it was
>> scraped. 1 year later, the buyer spent over 70K on french drains and
>> landscaping and grading. I was asked if I would grade the site to
>> drain away from the house, and I just refused to get into it. Another
>> house across the road from this one was built in the middle of a terrace
>> waterway that was cut to build the site. We had the 2007 hurricane come
>> through here during framing construction, and water went in the garage
>> and out through the side of a bedroom!!!!! I was asked to build a
>> new road through the development and was too high. I was asked by the
>> contractor to size the culverts. I specified 3 ea 18 x 36 flat bottom
>> culverts due to the low fill available. I was told I did not know
>> anything about water, and they installed 2 ea 12in culverts. I spent 35
>> years designing waterways and water structures I almost got into a
>> fight, but shut up and walked away. 2 months later we had one of
>> those monsoon rainstorms, and the culverts were 200 ft downstream of the
>> road. They now have 5 12in culverts!!
>>
>> This is just typical Okie..........
>>
>> I get pissed when I think of these idiots that just throw away money
>> because they think proper design costs money.
>>
>> Cecil in OKla
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 1/12/2016 2:21 PM, Mike M wrote:
>>> We had gophers get under our barn floor (I didn't build it) and it
>>> caused a lot of cracks and eventually heaving. The cracks I can
>>> partially blame on the cement installer who I think put the relief cuts
>>> too far apart. The cement pad in front of our garage is the same way,
>>> cracked and heaving. I will NEVER have concrete installed without
>>> re-bar, or some sort of steel reinforcement.
>>>
>>> Mike M
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 1/12/2016 2:21 PM, Dennis Johnson wrote:
>>>> Charlie, Cecil,
>>>>
>>>> My main loader project is trying to prepare a site to build a 36 x 44 or
>>>> 48 pole building. Got a few trees down that were too close or in the
>>>> build site, and now need to work Building poles will be set in dirt, and
>>>> the floor will be "floating" without stem walls. Plan to do hydronic
>>>> heating in the slab.
>>>> My entire property is a small hill. The soil is sandy, and the location
>>>> I have for the building was where there used to be a small shed. Gophers
>>>> dug tunnels all though the site. Loose sandy soil runs though the
>>>> gopher holes and comes out further down.
>>>> The soil where I am has a lot of sandstone. So water may go down between
>>>> 6" and 30" and hit a sandstone layer and then try to move more
>>>> horizontal than vertically down. It is not the nasty gumbo (grew up in
>>>> Kansas - remember gumbo very well) type soil Cecil was talking about,
>>>> but it is still soft and nasty especially when you end up on top of one
>>>> of the gopher tunnels. As. I recall the definition of quicksand is sandy
>>>> soil where water is flowing though it......
>>>> I need to move some dirt to level out the site, and also do some
>>>> drainage to make sure water drains around it. I have a few places where
>>>> there is build ups like a ditch edge are too steep and I need to move
>>>> dirt from there to the building site. There is also some fill at site of
>>>> an old house that burn down in wildfires where I need to remove some
>>>> dirt.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 12, 2016, at 12:38 PM, charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Cecil, I'm going to pick on you a bit because I think you will agree
>>>>> with
>>>>> me.
>>>>> After a 40 year career in construction and then real estate appraisal
>>>>> it
>>>>> still
>>>>> amazes me that people pay so little attention to foundation design and
>>>>> finish
>>>>> landscaping prior to construction compared to what you see with
>>>>> commercial
>>>>> and industrial buildings. It's become a pet peeve of mine so please
>>>>> indulge
>>>>> me.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems like folks build a house in a hole and then
>>>>> try to figure out how to drain the hole after the house is finished.
>>>>> Given
>>>>> your
>>>>> background I'm surprised you made the mistake of not considering soils
>>>>> but
>>>>> anyone can make a mistake.
>>>>>
>>>>> I bet if you had been designing a foundation for a commercial building
>>>>> on
>>>>> your
>>>>> site you would have not only put piles under it but you probably would
>>>>> have
>>>>> preloaded the site with good compactable soil that you later graded
>>>>> down
>>>>> leaving a solid, compacted base to "float" the slab on and at the same
>>>>> time
>>>>> gaining enough elevation to allow for settling. Or you might have even
>>>>> mucked it out to a solid base and filled the hole with compactable
>>>>> fill.
>>>>> Of course when you have to write the check yourself for all of that
>>>>> site
>>>>> prep
>>>>> it is easy to see the temporary merit of doing it the other way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Near where I live is a piece of property that is not low but it's wet
>>>>> and it
>>>>> does
>>>>> not have good drainage to anywhere. It's about 25 acres and the folks
>>>>> that
>>>>> own
>>>>> it moved up to Chicago and made a bunch of money. They retired back
>>>>> home to
>>>>> build their dream retirement home. They cleared off a corner of the
>>>>> property and
>>>>> built the house with a conventional floor system and after the fact
>>>>> realized
>>>>> they were
>>>>> in a hole. In the past 3 or 4 years they have completely graded and
>>>>> re-graded the
>>>>> entire 25 acres and dug two large ponds to try and dry the yard up and
>>>>> get
>>>>> the water
>>>>> out from under the house. I think they finally have it fixed as long
>>>>> as it
>>>>> doesn't rain
>>>>> enough to flood the ponds and at normal water table they only have
>>>>> about 2
>>>>> to 3 feet of
>>>>> bank before they flood. Now I notice that their outfall ditch seems to
>>>>> be
>>>>> flooding some
>>>>> of their neighbors slightly. Had they simply shot grade on the site
>>>>> they
>>>>> would have seen
>>>>> that all they needed to do was build on the other corner of the site.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm writing all of this not to pick on you exactly but so that others
>>>>> that
>>>>> might read it and
>>>>> not know better can be warned. Think of the final elevation, grading
>>>>> and
>>>>> landscaping FIRST
>>>>> not last. I guess this sounds like I'm trying to be a smart A$$ but as
>>>>> I
>>>>> said it's a pet peeve.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Cecil R Bearden
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 11:04 AM
>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Continuing "What to do"
>>>>>
>>>>> In Dennis' defense, this Oklahoma mud is really something else. It
>>>>> is about as sticky as super glue and as slick as greased owl S**T ! (
>>>>> My Dad's favorite expression ). You can get stuck in a truck with mud
>>>>> grip tires in as little as 2 inches of this stuff. It is a very
>>>>> sticky and slick clay. To drive in our mud, you have to have
>>>>> aggressive
>>>>> tire tread and enough power to spin the mud out to take another bite
>>>>> when the tire comes around again. A friend has a pickup with a high
>>>>> speed rear end but with only a 350 engine, and it cannot spin the mud
>>>>> out of the tires.
>>>>>
>>>>> On a tractor, the mud will build up in front of the front tires and
>>>>> then
>>>>> stick you. If you put any load in the bucket, the tires will sink.
>>>>> You
>>>>> have to keep moving fast enough over the ground to stay on top of the
>>>>> mud. When it dries, you need a pick and hammer to get it loose. When
>>>>> you wash the last of it you need a detergent to loosen the last film
>>>>> that is left.
>>>>> If I park a truck on a dry place and it sits without moving for a year,
>>>>> it is down to the axle. If I park it on boards to hold it up, it
>>>>> lasts
>>>>> another year. We have to design foundations with piers down as much as
>>>>> 6 to 8 ft to hit a shale layer. My house was built in 1985 when I was
>>>>> not really familiar with this soil, and has a conventional 12 x 18
>>>>> footing with no piers. It was also poured monolithic. It has sunk
>>>>> nearly 4 inches in the 30 years since it was built. That is an entire
>>>>> structure 34 x 66ft and functions as a solid slab!
>>>>>
>>>>> Just FYI about the mud in most of OKla.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cecil in oKla
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/12/2016 8:19 AM, Ralph Goff wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/12/2016 1:01 AM, Dennis Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>> Ralph, Larry,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe I need to practice being stuck more to develop that. Tried it
>>>>>>> earlier without a lot of success.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Dennis
>>>>>> Hope this picture is not too big for the list. I took it last June
>>>>>> while filling in a muddy crossing with sand. Loose sand on
>>>>>> top of mud and water so the Massey sunk almost to the front axle as I
>>>>>> pushed into it with the bucket. I thought it was
>>>>>> worth a picture before getting backed out of there using the bucket.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph in Sask.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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