[AT] Continuing "What to do"

[Stephen Offiler]

Um... for the record, Charlie, I saw nothing in your comments that
indicated rhetoric to me.  I just re-read it in fact, and even knowing you
meant it rhetorically, it still sounds like a sincere query to me.

The chemical reactions are pretty straightforward, and the real-world
consequences of NOx in the atmosphere are pretty straightforward and well
understood too.  So I guess I'm missing the point of your rhetoric.


SO

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 4:18 PM, charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
wrote:

> Steve,  Obviously I know that the (x) is a place holder
> and I'm surprised that you haven't figured out yet that
> I sometimes ask rhetorical questions.
>
> Chuck,  anything from a EPA website reflects a political
> agenda as much or more than the truth.
>
> Charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Offiler
> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 1:35 PM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] Continuing "What to do"
>
> Hi Charlie:
>
> NOx is shorthand for two compounds:  NO and NO2.  Both of these compounds
> are formed during combustion.
>
> NO in the atmosphere will react with oxygen to form NO2 at a rate that
> depends on the concentration of NO, but it's pretty quick, on the order of
> minutes to hours.
>
> Focusing therefore on NO2, you assume it is unstable and breaks down
> naturally in the atmosphere.  No.  NO2 is a stable compound that is also
> very reactive.  What really happens is that it reacts either with
> hydrocarbons in the atmosphere to form smog, or it reacts with moisture in
> the atmosphere to form nitric acid which falls as acid rain.
>
> Both smog and acid rain are considered bad things by many/most people.
> And, unlike CO2, smog and acid rain aren't theoretical problems, they are
> both real-world problems that were observed on a widespread basis (1950's,
> 1960's... not completely sure) and actually were two of the factors that
> led to the first emissions controls in the 1970's.
>
>
> SO
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 3:37 PM, charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Steve, I'm a bit rusty one what little bit of organic chemistry I ever
> > knew.
> > Do you happen to know what happens to NOx when it breaks down in
> > the atmosphere?  I would assume it is an unstable molecule and combines
> > with O2 yielding water vapor and Nitrogen.  Is that right?  If so what is
> > the big problem with
> > it since our atmosphere is predominantly Nitrogen to begin with?
> > I think the argument with NOx and CO2 are both over blown.
> > We can't live without CO2, it's what plants live on converting to free O2
> > and trapping the carbon in the plant matter where it belongs.
> > Other than the smog aspect in close proximity to the point source I don't
> > understand what all the problem is.
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stephen Offiler
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 8:31 AM
> > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > Subject: Re: [AT] Continuing "What to do"
> >
> > Cecil:
> >
> > (By the way I loved that rant on concrete and culverts!  I'm a mechanical
> > engineer and I see similar "we've always done it this way" idiocy in my
> > world every day)
> >
> > Different subject, see below...
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Cecil R Bearden <crbearden at copper.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > That is what I read also.  However, the result is a less reliable
> engine
> > > that uses more fuel.   How can you pollute less if the engine you are
> > > operating has all this crap on it but uses twice the mount of fuel?
> >
> >
> > Ask Volkswagen ;-)
> >
> > Seriously, the answer lies in the definition of "pollution".  One
> > pollutant
> > in particular is NOx.  A diesel engine inherently makes very high NOx
> > emissions.  The chemical reaction to form NOx happens at high temperature
> > and pressure, so, the more thermally efficient your diesel engine (the
> > better the engine at converting heat into motion) then the more NOx it
> > will
> > emit.  The trick to emitting less NOx is to detune the engine, so it
> > operates at lower temperatures and pressures.  It uses more fuel because
> > you took away thermal efficiency.
> >
> > And then there's yet another form of pollution called particulate matter,
> > PM.  Microscopic soot and ash, basically.  Modern diesels must be fitted
> > with traps to capture PM.  And the traps tend to fill up.  The way to
> > clean
> > them is called a "regen" and it involves heating up the trap to a higher
> > temperature to burn the soot down.   The extra heat comes from extra
> fuel.
> > So there's another reason modern diesels use more fuel.
> >
> >
> > Steve O.
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> >
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