[AT] Continuing "What to do"

[charlie hill]

Steve,  Obviously I know that the (x) is a place holder
and I'm surprised that you haven't figured out yet that
I sometimes ask rhetorical questions.

Chuck,  anything from a EPA website reflects a political
agenda as much or more than the truth.

Charlie

-----Original Message----- 
From: Stephen Offiler
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 1:35 PM
To: Antique tractor email discussion group
Subject: Re: [AT] Continuing "What to do"

Hi Charlie:

NOx is shorthand for two compounds:  NO and NO2.  Both of these compounds
are formed during combustion.

NO in the atmosphere will react with oxygen to form NO2 at a rate that
depends on the concentration of NO, but it's pretty quick, on the order of
minutes to hours.

Focusing therefore on NO2, you assume it is unstable and breaks down
naturally in the atmosphere.  No.  NO2 is a stable compound that is also
very reactive.  What really happens is that it reacts either with
hydrocarbons in the atmosphere to form smog, or it reacts with moisture in
the atmosphere to form nitric acid which falls as acid rain.

Both smog and acid rain are considered bad things by many/most people.
And, unlike CO2, smog and acid rain aren't theoretical problems, they are
both real-world problems that were observed on a widespread basis (1950's,
1960's... not completely sure) and actually were two of the factors that
led to the first emissions controls in the 1970's.


SO



On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 3:37 PM, charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
wrote:

> Steve, I'm a bit rusty one what little bit of organic chemistry I ever
> knew.
> Do you happen to know what happens to NOx when it breaks down in
> the atmosphere?  I would assume it is an unstable molecule and combines
> with O2 yielding water vapor and Nitrogen.  Is that right?  If so what is
> the big problem with
> it since our atmosphere is predominantly Nitrogen to begin with?
> I think the argument with NOx and CO2 are both over blown.
> We can't live without CO2, it's what plants live on converting to free O2
> and trapping the carbon in the plant matter where it belongs.
> Other than the smog aspect in close proximity to the point source I don't
> understand what all the problem is.
>
> Charlie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Offiler
> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 8:31 AM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] Continuing "What to do"
>
> Cecil:
>
> (By the way I loved that rant on concrete and culverts!  I'm a mechanical
> engineer and I see similar "we've always done it this way" idiocy in my
> world every day)
>
> Different subject, see below...
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Cecil R Bearden <crbearden at copper.net>
> wrote:
>
> > That is what I read also.  However, the result is a less reliable engine
> > that uses more fuel.   How can you pollute less if the engine you are
> > operating has all this crap on it but uses twice the mount of fuel?
>
>
> Ask Volkswagen ;-)
>
> Seriously, the answer lies in the definition of "pollution".  One 
> pollutant
> in particular is NOx.  A diesel engine inherently makes very high NOx
> emissions.  The chemical reaction to form NOx happens at high temperature
> and pressure, so, the more thermally efficient your diesel engine (the
> better the engine at converting heat into motion) then the more NOx it 
> will
> emit.  The trick to emitting less NOx is to detune the engine, so it
> operates at lower temperatures and pressures.  It uses more fuel because
> you took away thermal efficiency.
>
> And then there's yet another form of pollution called particulate matter,
> PM.  Microscopic soot and ash, basically.  Modern diesels must be fitted
> with traps to capture PM.  And the traps tend to fill up.  The way to 
> clean
> them is called a "regen" and it involves heating up the trap to a higher
> temperature to burn the soot down.   The extra heat comes from extra fuel.
> So there's another reason modern diesels use more fuel.
>
>
> Steve O.
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