[AT] Concrete and way off topic now.

[charlie hill]

Jim,  I took a course in "Materials of Construction" in college.
I'd had several classes under this same professor and knew him
pretty well.  The final exam was a take home.  "Design a batch
mix for 5000 psi concrete using ANY SOURCE(S) AVAILABLE TO YOU".
You seem to know a bit about batch design and probably know that
there are many ways to get there and that it is more or less a trial
and error process and a bit of a black art.  Keep doing it until you get
it right and then use that design.   Well everyone in the class was
freaked out about it.  They were in the library researching sources
and everyone seemed to be coming up empty.  I went back to the
professor twice and asked him if he really meant use "any source
available" with no limitations.  He assured me he did but wouldn't
elaborate.  I had a hunch that he was trying to teach us not to
re-invent the wheel and went with it.  I called the local batch
plant, explained that I was a student with a project and they happily
gave me their batch mix.  I wrote it up and put as my
Source the name of the Concrete company and the guy I talked to.
My classmates were freaking out and asked me if I had it done yet.
I told them yes.  They asked me with a shocked look how I did it.
I told them.  They looked at me like I was crazy.  I turned mine in
and got an A+ on the exam.  The rest got lesser grades.

I knew I didn't have a chance of designing it on my own and I knew
that if I did he had no way of knowing if it would work without
batching some up and I knew he had no way to do that.

Charlie

-----Original Message----- 
From: Jim Yost
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 4:39 PM
To: Antique tractor email discussion group
Subject: Re: [AT] Concrete and way off topic now.

Air entrained is chemically done not compressed air.

Sent from my iPhone
Jim

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 8:32 AM, charlie hill <charliehill at embarqmail.com> 
> wrote:
>
> Spencer I just read your story after replying to Cecil with a similar 
> story.
> As for entrained air, I had that same experience once aboard MCAS Cherry
> Point.
> I was pouring 550 flex concrete and had to turn down a load for the exact
> same
> reason.  Not as big a deal as yours was but it made the concrete truck
> driver
> plenty mad.  Didn't even phase the guy that owned the concrete company.
> He had the truck sent back, met it along the road somewhere and somehow
> injected
> air into the mix and sent it back to me.  How I don't know but it passed. 
> I
> had an
> engineering company on site doing the testing per the government specs. 
> All
> I know
> is I got it poured and to my knowledge that slab is still there 25 years
> later and still
> in good shape.
>
> Charlie
>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: ATIS
> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 9:10 PM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: [AT] Concrete and way off topic now.
>
> Your story reminded me of my own nightmare concrete story.  Warning. Long
> story ahead:
>
> Originally I was going to college for geophysical engineering, and still
> have a minor in geology.   I switched my major to computers. Was a really
> smart decision but that's beside the point of this message.
>
> I worked between semesters for a small materials engineering firm here in
> North Carolina. My job on concrete sites was to make damn sure they never
> add water(you are right Cecil) and do field tests and take samples for lab
> smashing (a lot of fun for those of you that never did it!).  One huge job
> required 3% entrained air, no less.   My field equipment was coming up
> basically zero.  I never gave the green light after the first three trucks
> failed and the concrete trucks started piling up.  The contractor and the
> concrete company basically threatened to throw me in the trench and pour
> concrete on me. I called my supervisor, an engineer, and he came out and
> rejected the first six because by now that had been sitting too long.   He
> tested the next three, confirmed my results and told everyone to back the
> hell down and drive those trucks offsite or he was calling the state(the
> owner).  To this day it's still the greatest example I have ever had of a
> supervisor who had your back.
>
> PS:  A huge lawsuit came out if between the state of North Carolina, the
> concrete company and the contractor.  Must have settled because I was 
> never
> subpoenaed.
>
> PSS:  By the way I was 20 years old at the time and I was plenty scared to
> stand my ground against that angry mob.
>
> PSSS:   As I understand it, they use somethings akin to Alka Seltzer to
> create the entrained air.
>
> Spencer Yost
>
>> On Jan 12, 2016, at 8:19 PM, Cecil R Bearden <crbearden at copper.net> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> When I built my house in 1985, I did not have the soils engineering
>> experience that I have now.  I also did not have the experience with
>> this crappy soil that I have.  I picked an old house site on the farm
>> and found the highest spot and cleaned off the topsoil before digging
>> the footing.  Then we poured a monolithic slab on top of the footing.
>> The slab is sitting on top of 18inches of sand.  I dug through the sand
>> to install the ductwork and plumbing.  This way we should never have a
>> problem with water in the ducts.  The footing has settled approximately
>> 4 inches over the past 30 years, based upon satellite surveying with
>> State Plane coordinates.   There is always the possibility that the
>> USCGS disc has settled, but if so then my house should have raised.
>> The monolithic slab and stem walls are tied to the footing.  The entire
>> slab floats on top of the ground.
>>
>> Let me say that my job was to review and approve the design of dams both
>> concrete and earthfill in the state of Oklahoma.  This included all the
>> structures needed to operate the dam.  I was required to be able to
>> design both earth and concrete structures in order to review the designs
>> submitted.  In 1997 we built a 40 x 100 building with a concrete slab
>> with piping in the floor for floor heat.  A 6 in waffle type slab sets
>> on 8 inch piers 6 ft deep into shale every 8 ft with a waffle type slab
>> construction. 6 inches of compacted wetted sand with the pipes in the
>> sand, over 10 mil plastic sheeting for water stop.  We used 1/2 in
>> reinforcing  18in.  on center each way. Contractor and Dad tried to tell
>> me that we did not need that much reinforcing.  My calculations said it
>> was a minimum.  I had 6% air entrainment with polymers added to make
>> things easier for the cement workers. When the concrete arrived, a local
>> septic tank contractor arrived to help the cement contractor.  He
>> started adding water to every truck.  When I said it was not needed, Dad
>> said everybody adds water.    The slab cracked every 8 ft across the 40
>> ft length. The contractor blamed it on the concrete.  The concrete
>> company came out and looked at it and presented us with copies of the
>> delivery ticket that was signed.  Every ticket stated that the
>> specifications are not guaranteed if water is added to the mix. When I
>> told Dad we were up that old creek without a paddle, he said Everybody
>> adds water.  I had advised the contractor that he did not need to add
>> water since I had ordered the polymer.  He was in agreement with me at
>> the start, but the guy who added the water was his buddy.....  Dad did
>> not want to get into a lawsuit because he drank coffee with the
>> contractor.
>>
>> I ended up with the reputation in this community as  the Engineer who
>> did not know s@@t about concrete!    I think that i why engineers do not
>> do work in their own community.    The slab did not separate,  it is
>> just cracked and it will take on water when you wash the slab.  It burns
>> my butt every time I sweep across one of those cracks.
>>
>> When I look at a set of plans, I don't necessarily look at the design as
>> much as I look where the contractor can screw it up!! Then I relate my
>> findings to the engineer.  So far I have received many referrals for
>> construction inspection jobs.
>>
>> We have a development a half mile away that I grade the road annually.
>> I cut hay on shares for several years there.  I offered to build the
>> pads and do the slab design for the builders there. I was told by 3
>> builders that they pay $275 for site preparation. If I could do it for
>> that, I could do whatever I thought was needed as long as it was not
>> over $275.  Also the slab design was one that they used for everything
>> and that is what their warranty insurance carrier had approved and they
>> were not going to change it.
>>
>> The first house ( approx 150K ) built in this development was built on a
>> site that was scraped off and it was a level 5 acres before it was
>> scraped.  1 year later, the buyer spent over 70K on french drains and
>> landscaping and grading.   I was asked if I would grade the site to
>> drain away from the house, and I just refused to get into it.    Another
>> house across the road from this one was built in the middle of a terrace
>> waterway that was cut to build the site.  We had the 2007 hurricane come
>> through here during framing construction, and water went in the garage
>> and out through the side of a bedroom!!!!!     I was asked to build a
>> new road through the development and was too high.  I was asked by the
>> contractor to size the culverts.  I specified 3 ea 18 x 36 flat bottom
>> culverts due to the low fill available.  I was told I did not know
>> anything about water, and they installed 2 ea 12in culverts.  I spent 35
>> years designing waterways and water structures I almost got into a
>> fight, but shut up and walked away.    2 months later we had one of
>> those monsoon rainstorms, and the culverts were 200 ft downstream of the
>> road.  They now have 5 12in culverts!!
>>
>> This is just  typical Okie..........
>>
>> I get pissed when I think of these idiots that just throw away money
>> because they think proper design costs money.
>>
>> Cecil in OKla
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 1/12/2016 2:21 PM, Mike M wrote:
>>> We had gophers get under our barn floor (I didn't build it) and it
>>> caused a lot of cracks and eventually heaving. The cracks I can
>>> partially blame on the cement installer who I think put the relief cuts
>>> too far apart. The cement pad in front of our garage is the same way,
>>> cracked and heaving. I will NEVER have concrete installed without
>>> re-bar, or some sort of steel reinforcement.
>>>
>>> Mike M
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 1/12/2016 2:21 PM, Dennis Johnson wrote:
>>>> Charlie, Cecil,
>>>>
>>>> My main loader project is trying to prepare a site to build a 36 x 44 
>>>> or
>>>> 48 pole building. Got a few trees down that were too close or in the
>>>> build site, and now need to work Building poles will be set in dirt, 
>>>> and
>>>> the floor will be "floating" without stem walls. Plan to do hydronic
>>>> heating in the slab.
>>>> My entire property is a small hill. The soil is sandy, and the location
>>>> I have for the building was where there used to be a small shed. 
>>>> Gophers
>>>> dug tunnels all though the site.  Loose sandy soil runs though the
>>>> gopher holes and comes out further down.
>>>> The soil where I am has a lot of sandstone. So water may go down 
>>>> between
>>>> 6" and 30" and hit a sandstone layer and then try to move more
>>>> horizontal than vertically down. It is not the nasty gumbo  (grew up in
>>>> Kansas - remember gumbo very well) type soil Cecil was talking about,
>>>> but it is still soft and nasty especially when you end up on top of one
>>>> of the gopher tunnels. As. I recall the definition of quicksand is 
>>>> sandy
>>>> soil where water is flowing though it......
>>>> I need to move some dirt to level out the site, and also do some
>>>> drainage to make sure water drains around it. I have a few places where
>>>> there is build ups like a ditch edge are too steep and I need to move
>>>> dirt from there to the building site. There is also some fill at site 
>>>> of
>>>> an old house that burn down in wildfires where I need to remove some
>>>> dirt.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 12, 2016, at 12:38 PM, charlie hill 
>>>>> <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Cecil,  I'm going to pick on you a bit because I think you will agree
>>>>> with
>>>>> me.
>>>>> After a 40 year career in construction and then real estate appraisal
>>>>> it
>>>>> still
>>>>> amazes me that people pay so little attention to foundation design and
>>>>> finish
>>>>> landscaping prior to construction compared to what you see with
>>>>> commercial
>>>>> and industrial buildings. It's become a pet peeve of mine so please
>>>>> indulge
>>>>> me.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems like folks build a house in a hole and then
>>>>> try to figure out how to drain the hole after the house is finished.
>>>>> Given
>>>>> your
>>>>> background I'm surprised you made the mistake of not considering soils
>>>>> but
>>>>> anyone can make a mistake.
>>>>>
>>>>> I bet if you had been designing a foundation for a commercial building
>>>>> on
>>>>> your
>>>>> site you would have not only put piles under it but you probably would
>>>>> have
>>>>> preloaded the site with good compactable soil that you later graded
>>>>> down
>>>>> leaving a solid, compacted base to "float" the slab on and at the same
>>>>> time
>>>>> gaining enough elevation to allow for settling.  Or you might have 
>>>>> even
>>>>> mucked it out to a solid base and filled the hole with compactable
>>>>> fill.
>>>>> Of course when you have to write the check yourself for all of that
>>>>> site
>>>>> prep
>>>>> it is easy to see the temporary merit of doing it the other way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Near where I live is a piece of property that is not low but it's wet
>>>>> and it
>>>>> does
>>>>> not have good drainage to anywhere.  It's about 25 acres and the folks
>>>>> that
>>>>> own
>>>>> it moved up to Chicago and made a bunch of money.  They retired back
>>>>> home to
>>>>> build their dream retirement home.  They cleared off a corner of the
>>>>> property and
>>>>> built the house with a conventional floor system and after the fact
>>>>> realized
>>>>> they were
>>>>> in a hole.  In the past 3 or 4 years they have completely graded and
>>>>> re-graded the
>>>>> entire 25 acres and dug two large ponds to try and dry the yard up and
>>>>> get
>>>>> the water
>>>>> out from under the house.   I think they finally have it fixed as long
>>>>> as it
>>>>> doesn't rain
>>>>> enough to flood the ponds and at normal water table they only have
>>>>> about 2
>>>>> to 3 feet of
>>>>> bank before they flood.  Now I notice that their outfall ditch seems 
>>>>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>> flooding some
>>>>> of their neighbors slightly.  Had they simply shot grade on the site
>>>>> they
>>>>> would have seen
>>>>> that all they needed to do was build on the other corner of the site.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm writing all of this not to pick on you exactly but so that others
>>>>> that
>>>>> might read it and
>>>>> not know better can be warned.  Think of the final elevation, grading
>>>>> and
>>>>> landscaping FIRST
>>>>> not last.  I guess this sounds like I'm trying to be a smart A$$ but 
>>>>> as
>>>>> I
>>>>> said it's a pet peeve.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Cecil R Bearden
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 11:04 AM
>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Continuing "What to do"
>>>>>
>>>>> In Dennis'  defense, this Oklahoma mud is really something else.    It
>>>>> is about as sticky as super glue and as slick as greased owl S**T ! 
>>>>> (
>>>>> My Dad's favorite expression ).  You can get stuck in a truck with mud
>>>>> grip tires in as little as 2 inches of this stuff.    It is a very
>>>>> sticky and slick clay.  To drive in our mud, you have to have
>>>>> aggressive
>>>>> tire tread and enough power to spin the mud out to take another bite
>>>>> when the tire comes around again.   A friend has a pickup with a high
>>>>> speed rear end but with only a 350 engine, and it cannot spin the mud
>>>>> out of the tires.
>>>>>
>>>>> On a tractor, the mud will build up in front of the front tires and
>>>>> then
>>>>> stick you.  If you put any load in the bucket, the tires will sink.
>>>>> You
>>>>> have to keep moving fast enough over the ground to stay on top of the
>>>>> mud.  When it dries, you need a pick and hammer to get it loose.  When
>>>>> you wash the last of it you need a detergent to loosen the last film
>>>>> that is left.
>>>>> If I park a truck on a dry place and it sits without moving for a 
>>>>> year,
>>>>> it is down to the axle.  If I park it on boards to hold it up,  it
>>>>> lasts
>>>>> another year.  We have to design foundations with piers down as much 
>>>>> as
>>>>> 6 to 8 ft to hit a shale layer.   My house was built in 1985 when I 
>>>>> was
>>>>> not really familiar with this soil, and has a conventional 12 x 18
>>>>> footing with no piers.  It was also poured monolithic.  It has sunk
>>>>> nearly 4 inches in the 30 years since it was built.  That is an entire
>>>>> structure 34 x 66ft and functions as a solid slab!
>>>>>
>>>>> Just FYI about the mud in most of OKla.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cecil in oKla
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/12/2016 8:19 AM, Ralph Goff wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/12/2016 1:01 AM, Dennis Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>> Ralph, Larry,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe I need to practice being stuck more to develop that. Tried it
>>>>>>> earlier without a lot of success.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Dennis
>>>>>> Hope this picture is not too big for the list. I took it last June
>>>>>> while filling in a muddy crossing with sand. Loose sand on
>>>>>> top of mud and water so the Massey sunk almost to the front axle as I
>>>>>> pushed into it with the bucket. I thought it was
>>>>>> worth a picture before getting backed out of there using the bucket.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph in Sask.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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