[AT] Concrete and way off topic now.

charlie hill charliehill at embarqmail.com
Sat Feb 13 06:13:30 PST 2016


Cecil, I'm wondering if you could use the old poly pipe as conduit to run 
new
PEX through now?

Charlie

-----Original Message----- 
From: Cecil Bearden
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 11:45 PM
To: Antique tractor email discussion group
Subject: Re: [AT] Concrete and way off topic now.

When we built the 40x100 shop, we installed 1in cross linked poly pipe
under the sand and above the water barrier and insulation to use for
floor heat.  2 years later we started to hook up the lines for heat, and
find that the pipe is too brittle to work with.  Turns out it was stored
outside. Pex pipe now has a limit of 30 days for outside storage in
sunlight.   We could not get the company to stand behind it, and if they
did, it was too late.  We could not pour a new slab..

Cecil in OKla

On 2/12/2016 8:15 AM, Henry Miller wrote:
> While you are planning the pour I recommend you toss some pipes in there 
> for in floor heat. You can hook it up whenever (or not), but it you don't 
> put it in you never get that choice.
>
>
>
> On February 12, 2016 6:06:19 AM CST, Cecil Bearden <crbearden at copper.net> 
> wrote:
>> I would also use a water barrier under the slab.  I prefer to put the
>> barrier under the sand cushion in order for the water in the concrete
>> to
>> go down instead of upwards and create a soft upper layer of concrete.
>> If you want to have a warm concrete floor, 2 inch Styrofoam insulation
>> board under the concrete or the sand will also help.  Again, the advice
>>
>> of a qualified engineer or a good building inspector who is familiar
>> with your area would be well worth the investment.
>>
>> Cecil in OKla
>>
>>
>> On 2/11/2016 2:20 PM, David Trompower wrote:
>>> Interesting discussion! and I want to learn more. SO this spring,
>> April, I am going to pour footings  for a room addition to my house.
>> and a floor for a small attached garage.
>>>    I don't know anything about needing  a certain percentage of air in
>> the concrete mix   to stop  spalling and  pin holes from forming.  or
>> how to test for the air or how to add it to the mix..
>>> And I don't know what strength of concrete to request. .
>>> requesting your answers please.
>>> I live in NC along i 77
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>> <at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com> on behalf of Cecil R Bearden
>> <crbearden at copper.net>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 11:13 PM
>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Concrete and way off topic now.
>>>
>>> Spencer:
>>> On another note it is always interesting to learn the background of
>> the
>>> list members.  We have a very knowledgeable group on about any
>> subject.
>>> Cecil in OKla
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/12/2016 8:10 PM, ATIS wrote:
>>>> Your story reminded me of my own nightmare concrete story.  Warning.
>> Long story ahead:
>>>> Originally I was going to college for geophysical engineering, and
>> still have a minor in geology.   I switched my major to computers. Was
>> a really smart decision but that's beside the point of this message.
>>>> I worked between semesters for a small materials engineering firm
>> here in North Carolina. My job on concrete sites was to make damn sure
>> they never add water(you are right Cecil) and do field tests and take
>> samples for lab smashing (a lot of fun for those of you that never did
>> it!).  One huge job required 3% entrained air, no less.   My field
>> equipment was coming up  basically zero.  I never gave the green light
>> after the first three trucks failed and the concrete trucks started
>> piling up.  The contractor and the concrete company basically
>> threatened to throw me in the trench and pour concrete on me. I called
>> my supervisor, an engineer, and he came out and rejected the first six
>> because by now that had been sitting too long.   He tested the next
>> three, confirmed my results and told everyone to back the hell down and
>> drive those trucks offsite or he was calling the state(the owner).  To
>> this day it's still the greatest example I have ever had of a
>> supervisor who had your b!
>> a!
>>>    ck.
>>>> PS:  A huge lawsuit came out if between the state of North Carolina,
>> the concrete company and the contractor.  Must have settled because I
>> was never subpoenaed.
>>>> PSS:  By the way I was 20 years old at the time and I was plenty
>> scared to stand my ground against that angry mob.
>>>> PSSS:   As I understand it, they use somethings akin to Alka Seltzer
>> to create the entrained air.
>>>> Spencer Yost
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 12, 2016, at 8:19 PM, Cecil R Bearden <crbearden at copper.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>> When I built my house in 1985, I did not have the soils engineering
>>>>> experience that I have now.  I also did not have the experience
>> with
>>>>> this crappy soil that I have.  I picked an old house site on the
>> farm
>>>>> and found the highest spot and cleaned off the topsoil before
>> digging
>>>>> the footing.  Then we poured a monolithic slab on top of the
>> footing.
>>>>> The slab is sitting on top of 18inches of sand.  I dug through the
>> sand
>>>>> to install the ductwork and plumbing.  This way we should never
>> have a
>>>>> problem with water in the ducts.  The footing has settled
>> approximately
>>>>> 4 inches over the past 30 years, based upon satellite surveying
>> with
>>>>> State Plane coordinates.   There is always the possibility that the
>>>>> USCGS disc has settled, but if so then my house should have raised.
>>>>> The monolithic slab and stem walls are tied to the footing.  The
>> entire
>>>>> slab floats on top of the ground.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me say that my job was to review and approve the design of dams
>> both
>>>>> concrete and earthfill in the state of Oklahoma.  This included all
>> the
>>>>> structures needed to operate the dam.  I was required to be able to
>>>>> design both earth and concrete structures in order to review the
>> designs
>>>>> submitted.  In 1997 we built a 40 x 100 building with a concrete
>> slab
>>>>> with piping in the floor for floor heat.  A 6 in waffle type slab
>> sets
>>>>> on 8 inch piers 6 ft deep into shale every 8 ft with a waffle type
>> slab
>>>>> construction. 6 inches of compacted wetted sand with the pipes in
>> the
>>>>> sand, over 10 mil plastic sheeting for water stop.  We used 1/2 in
>>>>> reinforcing  18in.  on center each way. Contractor and Dad tried to
>> tell
>>>>> me that we did not need that much reinforcing.  My calculations
>> said it
>>>>> was a minimum.  I had 6% air entrainment with polymers added to
>> make
>>>>> things easier for the cement workers. When the concrete arrived, a
>> local
>>>>> septic tank contractor arrived to help the cement contractor.  He
>>>>> started adding water to every truck.  When I said it was not
>> needed, Dad
>>>>> said everybody adds water.    The slab cracked every 8 ft across
>> the 40
>>>>> ft length. The contractor blamed it on the concrete.  The concrete
>>>>> company came out and looked at it and presented us with copies of
>> the
>>>>> delivery ticket that was signed.  Every ticket stated that the
>>>>> specifications are not guaranteed if water is added to the mix.
>> When I
>>>>> told Dad we were up that old creek without a paddle, he said
>> Everybody
>>>>> adds water.  I had advised the contractor that he did not need to
>> add
>>>>> water since I had ordered the polymer.  He was in agreement with me
>> at
>>>>> the start, but the guy who added the water was his buddy.....  Dad
>> did
>>>>> not want to get into a lawsuit because he drank coffee with the
>> contractor.
>>>>> I ended up with the reputation in this community as  the Engineer
>> who
>>>>> did not know s@@t about concrete!    I think that i why engineers
>> do not
>>>>> do work in their own community.    The slab did not separate,  it
>> is
>>>>> just cracked and it will take on water when you wash the slab.  It
>> burns
>>>>> my butt every time I sweep across one of those cracks.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I look at a set of plans, I don't necessarily look at the
>> design as
>>>>> much as I look where the contractor can screw it up!! Then I relate
>> my
>>>>> findings to the engineer.  So far I have received many referrals
>> for
>>>>> construction inspection jobs.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have a development a half mile away that I grade the road
>> annually.
>>>>> I cut hay on shares for several years there.  I offered to build
>> the
>>>>> pads and do the slab design for the builders there. I was told by 3
>>>>> builders that they pay $275 for site preparation. If I could do it
>> for
>>>>> that, I could do whatever I thought was needed as long as it was
>> not
>>>>> over $275.  Also the slab design was one that they used for
>> everything
>>>>> and that is what their warranty insurance carrier had approved and
>> they
>>>>> were not going to change it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The first house ( approx 150K ) built in this development was built
>> on a
>>>>> site that was scraped off and it was a level 5 acres before it was
>>>>> scraped.  1 year later, the buyer spent over 70K on french drains
>> and
>>>>> landscaping and grading.   I was asked if I would grade the site to
>>>>> drain away from the house, and I just refused to get into it.
>> Another
>>>>> house across the road from this one was built in the middle of a
>> terrace
>>>>> waterway that was cut to build the site.  We had the 2007 hurricane
>> come
>>>>> through here during framing construction, and water went in the
>> garage
>>>>> and out through the side of a bedroom!!!!!     I was asked to build
>> a
>>>>> new road through the development and was too high.  I was asked by
>> the
>>>>> contractor to size the culverts.  I specified 3 ea 18 x 36 flat
>> bottom
>>>>> culverts due to the low fill available.  I was told I did not know
>>>>> anything about water, and they installed 2 ea 12in culverts.  I
>> spent 35
>>>>> years designing waterways and water structures I almost got into a
>>>>> fight, but shut up and walked away.    2 months later we had one of
>>>>> those monsoon rainstorms, and the culverts were 200 ft downstream
>> of the
>>>>> road.  They now have 5 12in culverts!!
>>>>>
>>>>> This is just  typical Okie..........
>>>>>
>>>>> I get pissed when I think of these idiots that just throw away
>> money
>>>>> because they think proper design costs money.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cecil in OKla
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/12/2016 2:21 PM, Mike M wrote:
>>>>>> We had gophers get under our barn floor (I didn't build it) and it
>>>>>> caused a lot of cracks and eventually heaving. The cracks I can
>>>>>> partially blame on the cement installer who I think put the relief
>> cuts
>>>>>> too far apart. The cement pad in front of our garage is the same
>> way,
>>>>>> cracked and heaving. I will NEVER have concrete installed without
>>>>>> re-bar, or some sort of steel reinforcement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike M
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/12/2016 2:21 PM, Dennis Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>> Charlie, Cecil,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My main loader project is trying to prepare a site to build a 36
>> x 44 or 48 pole building. Got a few trees down that were too close or
>> in the build site, and now need to work Building poles will be set in
>> dirt, and the floor will be "floating" without stem walls. Plan to do
>> hydronic heating in the slab.
>>>>>>> My entire property is a small hill. The soil is sandy, and the
>> location I have for the building was where there used to be a small
>> shed. Gophers dug tunnels all though the site.  Loose sandy soil runs
>> though the gopher holes and comes out further down.
>>>>>>> The soil where I am has a lot of sandstone. So water may go down
>> between 6" and 30" and hit a sandstone layer and then try to move more
>> horizontal than vertically down. It is not the nasty gumbo  (grew up in
>> Kansas - remember gumbo very well) type soil Cecil was talking about,
>> but it is still soft and nasty especially when you end up on top of one
>> of the gopher tunnels. As. I recall the definition of quicksand is
>> sandy soil where water is flowing though it......
>>>>>>> I need to move some dirt to level out the site, and also do some
>> drainage to make sure water drains around it. I have a few places where
>> there is build ups like a ditch edge are too steep and I need to move
>> dirt from there to the building site. There is also some fill at site
>> of an old house that burn down in wildfires where I need to remove some
>> dirt.
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Dennis
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jan 12, 2016, at 12:38 PM, charlie hill
>> <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Cecil,  I'm going to pick on you a bit because I think you will
>> agree with
>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>> After a 40 year career in construction and then real estate
>> appraisal it
>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>> amazes me that people pay so little attention to foundation
>> design and
>>>>>>>> finish
>>>>>>>> landscaping prior to construction compared to what you see with
>> commercial
>>>>>>>> and industrial buildings. It's become a pet peeve of mine so
>> please indulge
>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It seems like folks build a house in a hole and then
>>>>>>>> try to figure out how to drain the hole after the house is
>> finished.  Given
>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> background I'm surprised you made the mistake of not considering
>> soils but
>>>>>>>> anyone can make a mistake.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I bet if you had been designing a foundation for a commercial
>> building on
>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> site you would have not only put piles under it but you probably
>> would have
>>>>>>>> preloaded the site with good compactable soil that you later
>> graded down
>>>>>>>> leaving a solid, compacted base to "float" the slab on and at
>> the same time
>>>>>>>> gaining enough elevation to allow for settling.  Or you might
>> have even
>>>>>>>> mucked it out to a solid base and filled the hole with
>> compactable fill.
>>>>>>>> Of course when you have to write the check yourself for all of
>> that site
>>>>>>>> prep
>>>>>>>> it is easy to see the temporary merit of doing it the other way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Near where I live is a piece of property that is not low but
>> it's wet and it
>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> not have good drainage to anywhere.  It's about 25 acres and the
>> folks that
>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>> it moved up to Chicago and made a bunch of money.  They retired
>> back home to
>>>>>>>> build their dream retirement home.  They cleared off a corner of
>> the
>>>>>>>> property and
>>>>>>>> built the house with a conventional floor system and after the
>> fact realized
>>>>>>>> they were
>>>>>>>> in a hole.  In the past 3 or 4 years they have completely graded
>> and
>>>>>>>> re-graded the
>>>>>>>> entire 25 acres and dug two large ponds to try and dry the yard
>> up and get
>>>>>>>> the water
>>>>>>>> out from under the house.   I think they finally have it fixed
>> as long as it
>>>>>>>> doesn't rain
>>>>>>>> enough to flood the ponds and at normal water table they only
>> have about 2
>>>>>>>> to 3 feet of
>>>>>>>> bank before they flood.  Now I notice that their outfall ditch
>> seems to be
>>>>>>>> flooding some
>>>>>>>> of their neighbors slightly.  Had they simply shot grade on the
>> site they
>>>>>>>> would have seen
>>>>>>>> that all they needed to do was build on the other corner of the
>> site.
>>>>>>>> I'm writing all of this not to pick on you exactly but so that
>> others that
>>>>>>>> might read it and
>>>>>>>> not know better can be warned.  Think of the final elevation,
>> grading and
>>>>>>>> landscaping FIRST
>>>>>>>> not last.  I guess this sounds like I'm trying to be a smart A$$
>> but as I
>>>>>>>> said it's a pet peeve.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Cecil R Bearden
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 11:04 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] Continuing "What to do"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In Dennis'  defense, this Oklahoma mud is really something else.
>>    It
>>>>>>>> is about as sticky as super glue and as slick as greased owl
>> S**T !   (
>>>>>>>> My Dad's favorite expression ).  You can get stuck in a truck
>> with mud
>>>>>>>> grip tires in as little as 2 inches of this stuff.    It is a
>> very
>>>>>>>> sticky and slick clay.  To drive in our mud, you have to have
>> aggressive
>>>>>>>> tire tread and enough power to spin the mud out to take another
>> bite
>>>>>>>> when the tire comes around again.   A friend has a pickup with a
>> high
>>>>>>>> speed rear end but with only a 350 engine, and it cannot spin
>> the mud
>>>>>>>> out of the tires.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On a tractor, the mud will build up in front of the front tires
>> and then
>>>>>>>> stick you.  If you put any load in the bucket, the tires will
>> sink.  You
>>>>>>>> have to keep moving fast enough over the ground to stay on top
>> of the
>>>>>>>> mud.  When it dries, you need a pick and hammer to get it loose.
>> When
>>>>>>>> you wash the last of it you need a detergent to loosen the last
>> film
>>>>>>>> that is left.
>>>>>>>> If I park a truck on a dry place and it sits without moving for
>> a year,
>>>>>>>> it is down to the axle.  If I park it on boards to hold it up,
>> it lasts
>>>>>>>> another year.  We have to design foundations with piers down as
>> much as
>>>>>>>> 6 to 8 ft to hit a shale layer.   My house was built in 1985
>> when I was
>>>>>>>> not really familiar with this soil, and has a conventional 12 x
>> 18
>>>>>>>> footing with no piers.  It was also poured monolithic.  It has
>> sunk
>>>>>>>> nearly 4 inches in the 30 years since it was built.  That is an
>> entire
>>>>>>>> structure 34 x 66ft and functions as a solid slab!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just FYI about the mud in most of OKla.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cecil in oKla
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/12/2016 8:19 AM, Ralph Goff wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/12/2016 1:01 AM, Dennis Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph, Larry,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I need to practice being stuck more to develop that.
>> Tried it
>>>>>>>>>> earlier without a lot of success.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>> Dennis
>>>>>>>>> Hope this picture is not too big for the list. I took it last
>> June
>>>>>>>>> while filling in a muddy crossing with sand. Loose sand on
>>>>>>>>> top of mud and water so the Massey sunk almost to the front
>> axle as I
>>>>>>>>> pushed into it with the bucket. I thought it was
>>>>>>>>> worth a picture before getting backed out of there using the
>> bucket.
>>>>>>>>> Ralph in Sask.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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