[AT] gas problems--off topic now do to missinformation

charlie hill charliehill at embarqmail.com
Fri May 10 19:21:05 PDT 2013


Jim if a federal law REQUIRING that nearly every gallon of gasoline sold in
the USA has to have at least 10% ethanol in it isn't a subsidy I don't know
what is.  There are rumblings in the EPA about raising it to 15% all because
Al Gore and his buddies built a lie about global warming based on fraudulent
data.

I happen to have a friend who is a very large gasoline, diesel fuel and bio 
fuel
distributor.  He tells me ethanol can not compete as a fuel on it's own 
merit.
I would tell you how big but if I did I'd tell you who he is and I don't 
have his
permission nor will I ask him for it.   Don't believe me.  I don't care.

Charlie

-----Original Message----- 
From: Jim & Lyn Evans
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 9:24 PM
To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
Subject: Re: [AT] gas problems--off topic now do to missinformation

Where do you get your information?  Subsidies on corn ethanol ended on
Jan 1, 2012.  Meanwhile, we subsidize big oil 10 billion to 52 billion
dollars per year! http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/
Even when fully subsidized in 2011, the ethanol industry only received
around 6 billion dollars per year, a small fraction of what we give the
oil companies.
Here is just the information for Exxon: (from
http://thinkprogress.org/tag/oil-subsidies/?mobile=nc)

,Exxon is exempt from paying taxes
<http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/04/02/1810571/exxons-duck-killing-pipeline-doesnt-pay-taxes-to-oil-spill-cleanup-fund/>toward
the oil spill liability fund that helps clean up spills like in
Arkansas, where wildlife have been killed and covered by oil. The 1980
law exemption applies to diluted bitumen so companies escape paying the
8-cents-per-barrel fee to the fund that helps clean up hundreds of
spills each year. At the federal level, Exxon's tax rate comes to only
13 percent.

Here is how else Exxon spends its dollars, and what it receives in return:

    -- Exxon spent $12,970,000 on lobbying in 2012 to protect low tax
    rates and block pollution controls and safeguards for public health.
    In the first three months of 2013, Exxon spent$4.84 million lobbying
    <http://disclosures.house.gov/ld/ldxmlrelease/2013/Q1/300563423.xml>.

    -- The company sent$3.6 million
    <http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000129>in total
    political contributions to PACs, candidates, and outside groups for
    the 2012 election cycle, and 89 percent of contributions went to
    Republicans. It has spentover $76,000
    <http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/totals.php?id=D000000129&cycle=2012>for
    the 2014 cycle so far.

    -- Exxon receives an estimated$600 million in annual federal tax
    breaks
    <http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/green/report/2012/07/26/11880/romney-tax-plan-many-happy-returns-for-big-oil/#.UIf368y0-SA.email>.
    In 2011, Exxon paid just 13 percent in taxes. The company paid no
    federal income tax in 2009, despite $45.2 billion record profits.

    -- In the first quarter, Exxon bought back$5.6 billion of its stock
    <http://www.exxonmobil.com/Corporate/Files/news_release_earnings_1q13.pdf>,
    or 59 percent of its profit, which enriches the largest shareholders
    and executives of the company.

    -- This year, Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson received a15 percent raise
    <http://www.dallasnews.com/business/headlines/20130412-exxon-mobil-ceo-rex-tillerson-gets-15-percent-raise-to-40.3-million.ece>to
    a $40.3 million salary.


As for the energy imbalance, for years, ethanol is a net gain, and it
gets better each year:
https://www.extension.iastate.edu/agdm/articles/hof/HofJuly07.html

Since 2001:
a. Natural gas energy required to produce a
gallon of ethanol has fallen 28%.
b. Electricity use is down 32%.
c. The amount of ethanol produced per bushel
of corn has increased to 2.8 gallons, up more
than 5%.
d. Water use has fallen to 2.7 gallons per gallon
of ethanol, down 47% since 2001 and comparable to water use for gasoline
production.
11. Ethanol's energy balance is continually improving:
1 unit of energy invested in making ethanol
yields up to 2.3 units of energy available for
the consumer.



On 5/7/2013 9:48 PM, charlie hill wrote:
> Ed,  I know I'm wasting my time but I'm going to say it anyway.
> It takes more BTU's of fossil fuel to create a gallon of ethanol than the
> ethanol produces.  Also, recent data from the US Government state
> that the US among the largest reserves of oil, gas and coal of any country
> on the planet and more than enough to sustain our economy well into the 
> next
> century.  National Security my ass.  Our deal leader just won't let us 
> drill
> for what we have here.
>
> You'll get no argument from me about sugar, dairy and beef.  In fact the
> largest part of
> USDA budget by far is Food Stamps.  The current administration has turned
> the USDA
> into a second department of health and human services.  A big welfare
> program.  That does
> not change the fact that the biggest lobby pushing ethanol subsidies is 
> the
> farm lobby.
> I'm not against ethanol.  I'm against using natural gas and oil to make
> ethanol out of corn
> in order to keep the price of corn up.  Ethanol can NOT survive in the
> market as a fuel without a federal
> subsidy.
>
> Find a way to make ethanol from switch grass or wood chips or algae or
> whatever and fuel the process
> with waste heat from other manufacturing operations and you'll get no
> argument from me but as long
> as you are burning oil from third world countries to make ethanol with the
> net effect of using more fuel
> and raising the price of fuel and commodities for everyone I'm against it.
> For the record I own a farm
> and was raised on the farm and have been directly involved in or dependent
> on agriculture for 62 years
> and 8 months.
>
> You are right.  Some peoples opinions are based on misinformation.   those
> would be YOURS.
>
> Charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edchainsaw at aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 10:04 PM
> To: at at lists.antique-tractor.com
> Subject: Re: [AT] gas problems--off topic now do to missinformation
>
> we have used ethanol since  the beginning as well  no problems  here.. 
> over
> 35yrs.
> we had problems with the lead addatives they separated in fuel and caked.
> maybe that's you guys problems? I know lots of suppliers  still add that
> junk!
>
> as for ethanol beeing  just  a  BIG AG deal NO!  its  not..  its a US
> SECURITY ISSUE!   we get how much of our oil from  the middle east?   and
> did
> you know  Brazil gets most of  its fuel from Ethanol!
>
> I take very much acception to the comments of uneducated people on the
> topic of farm profitability and the ag budgets ...   especially the
> "FEEDING
> OFF THE GOVERNMENT TROUGH"   you people do not even know  half.
>
> the Farm partion of the Ag budget costs each person in the USA $1.   there
> are so many things in the ag budget NOT farm related its  horrific.
>
> did you sugar, cotton,  and yes Beef and Dairy are all parts of the  FARM
> portion.
>
> some peoples optinions are based on  missinformation
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