[AT] ATIS members

[charlie hill]

Thanks Ken.   I think that is what I'll do.  I'll clean up this old Carb I 
have ( I believe it's the same bolt pattern.)
and see if I can make it work.

I have never messed with go-carts but back in the mid 70's some of my 
buddies did.  You said some folks might
be souping them up to ridiculous levels.  Believe  me they do.  One common 
trick I remember them talking about
was running a 3 hp B&S flywheel on a 5HP engine.  Someone actually makes an 
offset key for the keyway on the
shaft and flywheel to make the timing correct.   A friend of mine had a cart 
with 2 5's on it, one pulling each rear
wheel.  They were running on methanol.   I saw one once that had so much 
compression that the guy had put a
piece of 1/4" steel plate over the head and bolted it down to the frame with 
all thread rod to keep the thing from
blowing the head off.  At the time I just had no interest in learning their 
tricks so I don't have a clue how they made
it all work but I do know that none of them had stock carbs on them.  I 
guess I can get ahold of one of those guys
and find out what kind of carbs they were using.

Of course I'm not interested in souping this one up.  In fact it doesn't 
even need to run full throttle to do what I
want it to do.

Charlie


-----Original Message----- 
From: Ken Knierim
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 9:41 AM
To: Antique tractor email discussion group
Subject: Re: [AT] ATIS members

Charlie,
      As you're aware, small engines are a smaller and less technical
version of the bigger stuff. In short, you can get away with things on
small engines that would destroy others. You need fuel, compression, spark
and timing of the above, just like others.
      If the carb is bolted to the engine, you might  measure the bolt
pattern and mate up a carb from there. Fuel mix will be pretty similar. If
you know of an engine like it being used on a cart or something, look
around for forums and whatnot... someone someplace is probably hopping the
silly thing up to ridiculous levels and selling how to do that... and
others may have ideas on how to get there with minimal cost. I'm partial to
stock reliability, but that's me. I've also fitted a B&S carb onto a VW
engine to see if I could get it to start and run (it did). A common thought
is to get a carb off something else (I've used one from a Tecumseh in the
past too) that has a decent flange and is a float-style carb. Make whatever
adapter (tubes and flanges) with a welder and work out how to set up a
rudimentary governor that higher revs throttles it back. (full scale on the
gov should be close to full throttle adjust, of course). A spring can come
later. Baling wire works well for linkage... this is a tiller, right? Just
remember the basics, seal the intake to the carb, get fuel and give it a
spin. It'll tell you pretty quickly whether it's going to work or not.
Remember though, they can be overrevved so have a shutdown thought handy
(use the choke maybe?)

Hope this helps.

Ken in AZ



On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 6:13 AM, charlie hill 
<charliehill at embarqmail.com>wrote:

> Ken I don't really know what is wrong with the carb.  It's almost
> impossible
> to start the thing,  generally requires pouring some gas in the spark plug
> hole.  Once it is running it will run but after a while it will cut off 
> and
> won't restart.  It's not an engine problem.  It's all related to that tank
> that is integral
> to the carb.  The carb, tank and muffler are all jammed up together.  It's
> nearly impossible to to get one of the intake bolts on or off because the
> one piece
> carb and intake come off of the block at an angle and of course the tank 
> is
> hanging onto the bottom of the carb and the muffler is right on top of all
> of it.
>   I'm just sick of it the way it is and want to change it.  I have had it
> fixed by others in the past  and I haven't torn into it this time to see
> what is wrong.
> The throttle shaft isn't worn.  This engine runs less than an hour a year.
> I'm sure most of the problems are related to bad gas, old gas and
> occasionally water in the gas
> but I'm just tired of fooling with this ridiculous setup.  I want it to
> have
> a carb that is not attached to anything so that I can shut off the fuel 
> and
> run it out of gas before I put it away.
> There is no way to drain the current tank except to turn the whole tiller
> upside down.
>
> 5 HP Briggs and Stratton engines have been modified in many ways by folks
> with go carts and all sorts of contraptions and there has to be another
> carb
> available for it.
> I'm just not used to working on small engines and don't know where to 
> start
> looking.
>
> Charlie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Knierim
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:48 AM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] ATIS members
>
> Hey Charlie,
>      What exactly is wrong with the carb? If the throttle shaft is worn
> out, it could be tough to fix but nearly everything else (cracked castings
> or broken plastic aside) can be repaired or replaced. The concept of 
> having
> a junkpile of scrapped engines comes into play. Most horizontal shaft
> Briggs engines live long enough to wear other things out (carbs, valves,
> etc) and if you can get some parts from vertical shaft engines (which are
> much less long-lived, IMHO) you're better off. The biggest thing with the
> carbs is the diaphram gets stretched and won't pump fuel and it makes
> getting them started a real bear. A $3 kit includes the diaphram and takes
> half an hour to clean the carb and install it. You can get the needle
> valves if you need and just replace the parts. Much easier than trying to
> retrofit another carb on there unless you have a very similar carb for
> parts.
>
> Since this is one of your own, the balance sheet changes... but you still
> want it reliable, I'm sure. There are dead mowers and whatnot going to
> scrap all the time. Look there for parts too. I'd lean toward a new kit in
> either that carb or a direct replacement. Briggs has a habit of making the
> same (or an interchangeable equivalent) for long periods of time.
> Simplifies parts chains, education, etc, and makes your job of putting 
> them
> together a lot simpler.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Ken in AZ
>
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 5:20 AM, charlie hill
> <charliehill at embarqmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Ken or others,
> >
> > I've got a garden tiller with a 5 hp Briggs & Stratton.  It's got a lot
> of
> > years on it but very few hours.
> > I converted it to electronic ignition probably 10 years ago.  The engine
> > it's self is just fine but
> > it's got one of those carbs on it that connects directly to the top of
> the
> > fuel tank and that thing is nothing
> > but trouble on a good day and now it's gone bad again.  What I'd like to
> > do
> > is find a carb that will fit it
> > and hook up to the governor, etc. that works with a remote fuel tank 
> > that
> > I
> > will mount to the handle bars
> > and gravity feed to the carb.   Have you got any ideas or
> recommendations?
> >
> > I've got one very old carb here that is in good shape.  It's a Lawson
> > Power
> > products carb.  One of the old
> > ones with the stamped metal float bowl attached to the bottom.  I think
> it
> > will work but there is no provision
> > to hook it to the engine governor.   I don't care about the governor
> > anyway
> > but I don't know what to do with the
> > linkage or how to bypass the governor.
> >
> > New engines are cheap enough these days that I can't justify spending a
> > lot
> > on it.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ken Knierim
> > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 11:18 PM
> > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > Subject: Re: [AT] ATIS members
> >
> > Ben,
> >     I did small engine repair while I went through electronics school
> > ('82-'84 timeframe), and I now run a small business in electronics.
> Here's
> > my take on it: (beware; this got rather long. feel free to hit delete)
> >
> > Cleanliness is cannot be overstressed! Pressure washers, air hoses,
> > cleaning equipment, whatever it takes. You can't find problems you 
> > cannot
> > see for the gunk.
> >
> > As others have pointed out, when it comes to 2-stroke engines, carbs are
> > cheaper than labor these days. Replace whenever possible. Otherwise, get
> a
> > can of carb cleaner, keep it fresh, and get a new seal kit with each 
> > carb
> > and replace the diaphrams. They die and make 'em impossible to start.
> > Replace fuel lines wherever feasible.
> >
> > Learn the method to starting a 2-cycle and follow it. It'll save your
> > arms!
> > (primer until the bulb feels different if equipped, full choke and
> > throttle, pull it until you hear a pop, go to half choke, pull it once 
> > or
> > twice more and it should be running. choke off as it warms up.)
> >
> > I used to use WD-40 as starting fluid for 2-strokes. Now it's useless 
> > for
> > that. I've started using carb cleaner but it's not as easy on the
> engines.
> > Ether is bad for 2-strokes because of how it thins down the oil. Find
> > something that works for you.
> >
> > Get access to small engine repair websites. briggsandstratton.com is
> your
> > friend. Type in the engine codes, get an exploded view and order the
> parts
> > as required. Get yourself set up to order parts. Get tools. I highly
> > recommend the flywheel pulling tools from B&S if you work on those.
> others
> > exist depending on makes and configs. Seeing what the tools look like in
> > the manuals, which you'll want to build an archive of (electronic 
> > archive
> > these days), may help you find them at swap meets, etc. Better yet, if
> you
> > find an old timer that's hanging up his tools, see if you can work a 
> > deal
> > with him or her. Another one is to use forums like this as a resource.
> > There are a LOT of really good people out there that like to help when
> > there is an appreciative student.
> >
> > Go to a reputable small engine repair shop and figure out what they
> charge
> > for prices to open something up, etc. Use this as your pricing 
> > guideline.
> > You can knock it down a little but SE repair is usually cutthroat. Find
> > out
> > the going rates and stay competitive or you'll wish you had.
> >
> > Don't cheap yourself. If you have a customer that just wants to cheap 
> > the
> > repair, they're probably going to whine when it doesn't run like a new
> > unit. No sense in loosing money AND having a whiney customer about it.
> The
> > ones that want to pay for a quality repair generally understand what it
> > takes and are better to deal with (general rule, but people are people).
> > If
> > they want to "save" money on something and not put in a new spark plug 
> > or
> > carb kit or whatever (parts are cheaper than labor!), they may be 
> > telling
> > you they don't think your time is worth anything. Learn to deal with
> this,
> > be gentle but firm about pricing. Know where the nearest lowball
> > competitor
> > is and offer to send them there. You want the business that pays you to
> do
> > what you love. It'll rarely pay well, but you DO want to make SOMETHING
> > because tools, parts, buildings and food all cost money.
> >
> > Try and get yourself a fleet to work with; steady work is a steady
> > paycheck, even if you're just changing oil, sharpening blades and
> cleaning
> > filters. I did it as part of a lawn service company in Phoenix. Repairs
> > generally do better when economic times are rough, new sales are
> generally
> > better when things are moving along. You may need to repower old
> equipment
> > when the engines are too beat up and it's cheaper to put a new one on
> > instead. We had several decks (mower frames of the push variety) that
> > would
> > wear out an engine every 6 months with daily oil changes, filter
> cleanings
> > and blade sharpenings. The problem was the carb throttle shafts, not the
> > engines themselves.
> >
> > If you tear a Briggs down and have to go into the bottom end and it's
> > going
> > on something that gets daily usage, don't. Scrap it; it's not worth it.
> > Similar with other makes, but you get the gist. If the bottom end is 
> > worn
> > or abused, the unit is probably not worth keeping on life support as
> > something else is about to go too. If you're putting a warranty on your
> > work, these basket cases WILL cost you. Do you and your customer a
> > favor...
> > scrap the engine and find a replacement.
> >
> > If you can convert the breaker point engines to electronic ignition 
> > (kits
> > used to exist; I haven't looked for them lately but they are WORTH it!)
> > you
> > might consider it.
> >
> > Cheap fuel ISN'T. Put the highest grade pump gas in these beasts and 
> > they
> > run better. 92 Octane is cheap insurance. Recommend it to folks using
> > power
> > equipment. "Oh, but it's too expensive!" Horsepucky! One recalcitrant
> > starting engine can rapidly turn into a warranty call as fuel never gets
> > better when it's in the tank. Start as good as you can, use a fuel
> > additive
> > (Sta-Bil has treated me well) and tell them to run it out before they
> park
> > the engine (they won't, but at least you told them when they bring it
> back
> > in 6 months or a year)
> >
> > Little things like stocking a few fuel bulbs, gas caps, common carb 
> > kits,
> > air filters, oil and whatnot can be profitable. If customers know you
> > stock
> > it or can get it, they will tell others. Do something wrong, and they
> will
> > tell a LOT MORE others though. Apologizing for poor quality really
> bothers
> > me, so I strive to get it RIGHT that much harder.
> >
> > Older engines are enjoyable but the market is a lot smaller than the
> newer
> > stuff (at least in AZ). Most of it was designed to be throw away
> > (especially 2-stroke stuff), but many manufacturers put a lot of thought
> > into making the engines serviceable and maintainable. They make money 
> > off
> > parts and do know how to support the engines.
> >
> > The biggest thing is, enjoy it. Take something that's been neglected,
> tear
> > it down, clean it up, and make it purr and there is a sense of
> > accomplishment. If you treat it as a hobby that's done with profit in
> mind
> > (while you keep another job), you might be able to build up a decent
> > clientele and not starve.
> >
> > If you're going to go after restoration thoughts, you will likely end up
> > going a different direction. I'm a big fan of American Restoration on
> > History Channel. What they do is different and may be more to your
> liking.
> > It can also be profitable from the look of things... once you get that
> > reputation. To get there, you probably need to have a wider skill-set
> than
> > average... in addition to making the engine run, you have to beat the
> > dents
> > out of the sheet metal, sandblast the rust off, put a couple shiny coats
> > of
> > paint on it, polish the brass and then find a buyer. There ARE a few 
> > more
> > steps to that path, and each will require refinement. I'm stuck in the
> > "make the engine run" phase, which I tend to like the best.
> >
> > Just my thoughts, and worth what you paid for it. I wish you well in 
> > your
> > endeavors and if I can help, well, let me know.
> >
> > Ken in AZ
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Ben Wagner <supera1948 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Here's one of the younger folks in love with his antique machines!
> > >
> > > I think one of the better ways to get my generation involved in
> antiques
> > > is to be ready to answer all the stupid questions you have heard for
> the
> > > twentieth time.  I know you folks on the list have been exemplary at
> > > that for me when I worked through my first restoration, and I know you
> > > still are for others, as well as when I get in a bind!
> > >
> > > On another note, I plan to be working with antiques for a long time. 
> > > I
> > > received a reputation as "that guy who works on those old magnetos and
> > > hand cranked engines" among mechanics and "that guy who bothers me
> every
> > > week about Grandpa's tractor behind the barn" among everyone else.  As
> a
> > > result, I am starting a small business working on antique equipment,
> and
> > > buying/repairing/restoring/selling anything old with an engine I can
> > > find.  Any advice is still (and will be) greatly appreciated!
> > >
> > > Thanks for all your help through the years I have read and asked too
> > > many questions.  Even though I haven't posted much, reason standing
> that
> > > I still think of myself as too inexperienced to talk, I have enjoyed
> > > quietly learning from all of your knowledge.
> > >
> > > If ever anyone is in the Shenandoah Valley of VA, drop by and say
> hello!
> > >
> > > Ben Wagner
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11/7/2012 9:49 AM, Cecil R Bearden wrote:
> > > > I was looking at Mike Sloane's albums of the atis members.   I feel
> > like
> > > > I know you guys even though we have never met in person.   I just 
> > > > did
> > > > not realize how many years we had been "talking" on this list.   I
> > > > also
> > > > am concerned about what we are going to do about getting more 
> > > > younger
> > > > folks involved in this hobby or just working with tractors.   I
> > > > personally will have tractors around until I can no longer move.
> > > > However, I have lately gravitated toward my tractors with the cab. 
> > > > I
> > > > used the 930 Case to sow wheat this time just because I live to 
> > > > drive
> > > > it.  The steering gear started to lock up, I hope I can use the 
> > > > parts
> > > > from the 900 Case I have for parts. Here in OK, thewind is always 15
> > > > to
> > > > 25 gusting to 35.  When it is below 50 deg. riding a tractor is 
> > > > cold.
> > > > At 90 deg and upward to 110 as this summer was, that  can dry you 
> > > > out
> > > > real quick.  The cab on the Belarus tractors is good because you can
> > > > open the doors and all the windows.  The NH TS110 just has an air
> > > > conditioner that cools to 60 deg..    With the thoughts of skin
> cancer
> > > > from sun exposure, I am going to use the cab tractors.
> > > > Cecil in okla
> > > >
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