[AJD] Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 7

E. Thatcher ethatche at hotmail.com
Thu Jan 12 10:53:39 PST 2012


Quit a lively conversation here!  I threw in the comment in my original post that when considering an older gas tractor that it might be necessary in some cases to consider upgrading the valve train at overhaul to handle no lead gas.  I'm only an old ex farmer/mechanic and was basically covering my butt against some unforseen problems from my comments.  Others here have taken most of the doubt out of that issue.  The fact that tractor engines are heavily built and although not mentioned previously, most of the older (pre 1960's) models were designed to run on just about anything that would burn.  My JD A and G ran fine on no lead pump gas with only the addition of Sta-bil and Marvel Mystery oil to keep the fuel somewhat fresh during times when they weren't being used as much.  From what I've learned, modern fuels lack the additives to maintain freshness for extended periods of storage (more than a month).  Since I started using Sta-bil and/or Marvel Mystery Oil in machines that don't see daily use and in my stored fuel, I haven't had problem in fifteen years related to bad fuel.  During the last five years I switched from antique tractors to anitque cars.  With antique cars, 1930 or newer, compression ratios were getting higher and there are some problems with no lead gas in these engines that ultimately have to be addressed with an upgrade to the valve train if you plan to put one into regular service.  The only problem I've ever experienced with ethanol is in engines with fuel systems that had any rubber components.  It turns out that untreated rubber parts become "goo" in short order.  One cautionary note about AV gas,  I learned from one of my antique car groups that the use of AV gas in motor vehicles is a Federal crime since it isn't taxed and rated for highway use.  Kind of the same thing as running furnace oil in your diesel truck or car.  
 > From: antique-johndeere-request at lists.antique-tractor.com
> Subject: Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 7
> To: antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com
> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:00:02 -0500
> 
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: fuel talk (Edchainsaw at aol.com)
>    2. Re: Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 4 (Mitchell Daly)
>    3. Re: Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 4 (Paul Sawyer)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:37:47 -0500 (EST)
> From: Edchainsaw at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [AJD] fuel talk
> To: antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com
> Message-ID: <76f7d.bbb151a.3c3f22ea at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> I have been reading all these posts and know a lot are from  experiances.   
> I have read some and just wander why they have the  problems or go to the 
> extremes they do.
>  
> We have run ethanol based unleaded fuels for over 30yrs.  I have used  the 
> same 630 JD to mow hay with (a 9ft disc mower ran in 4th grear)    for   
> about 25yrs .   There has never been any issue on this  tractor with any 
> diaphams or seals or valve issues .   We also run a  1982 JD 400 lawn mower with 
> over 1000hrs  - same fuel- only problem  ever was when a screw fell from the 
> carb into the engine.  We own more  tractors than people have fingers and 
> toes so this is not out of the  ordinary.   We have a 4020 gas that's never 
> fouled a plug since we  purchased it but it does use oil,  1 pump quit us 
> after 1 month but this  new pump is 3yrs old--- this is my hay moving and 
> setting tractor.   
>  
> The tractors we have trouble fouling plugs  are  the ones that  use a bit 
> of oil.  The ones that have diapham troubles  have troubles  over and over.  
> I add some sea foam to tractors I know will be sitting an  unspecified time 
> (sea foam or stabil what ever I have at the  time).  
>  
> We work our old machines as much as I can and I just  CANNOT  believe the 
> problems some people say they have are all  ethanol  related.   
>  
> What my fellow engineers at  the local refinery told me ( I do not  work 
> with them)  is that they add stuff to fuel and those addatives are  different 
> from old gas.  The additives they put in are made for cars with  fuel 
> injection.  So some of the problems we might think is   ethanol  might be the 
> addatives, because AVGAS would not have these either. 
>  
> eddie
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:20:29 -0500
> From: Mitchell Daly <md31043 at msn.com>
> Subject: Re: [AJD] Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 4
> To: Antique John Deere mailing list
> 	<antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> Message-ID: <SNT137-W19A012D3326F47DF443A62F99E0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> 
> Paul,
> 
>  
> 
> I go to a small local airstrip where they have a lot of single engine Cessnas and Pipers and get my 5 gallon can filled up. I've never been questioned about what I'm using it for. The AV gas does contain lead and it has no other additives. One of the guys in our club, who is a retired US Air pilot, is the one who put me onto the AV gas. He uses it in all of his equipment, especially the small engines, and never has a problem. As far as whether the problems with today's gas are ethanol related or additive related, I can't speak. I do know that today's gas has caused a lot of seal and diaphram problems with the two cylinder tractors for some of the guys in our club. I've had to rebuild the carbs on some of my one cylinder engines and since using the AV gas, no more problems. Avoid the Champion plugs too. 
> 
> Mitch Daly- md31043 at msn.com
>  
> 
> 
> > From: mustangpaul at gmail.com
> > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:39:18 -0600
> > To: antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > Subject: Re: [AJD] Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 4
> > 
> > Where do you get the aviation fuel? I'm guessing I just can't go up to the airport and buy some. 
> > 
> > ------------
> > Powered by iPhone 4
> > 
> > On Jan 10, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Mitchell Daly <md31043 at msn.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > Not only does the Aviation gas contain some lead, but it is also ethanol-free!! That is a real bonus today, particularly using it in small engines where the ethanol tends to rot the diaphrams and seals. I use it in all of my mowers and chainsaws, etc. Don't need Stabil with it either.
> > > 
> > > Mitch Daly - md31043 at msn.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >> From: salisburyw at comcast.net
> > >> To: antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > >> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:05:51 -0500
> > >> Subject: Re: [AJD] Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 4
> > >> 
> > >> HI Rev. Gerber,
> > >> 
> > >> I agree with your machine shop guru. What causes damage with the valve 
> > >> seats in some engines is the inability to carry away the heat fast enough. 
> > >> The cylinder heads on these tractor engines are really quite heavily built 
> > >> and that cast iron will handle any of the heat that these low output engines 
> > >> are able to generate, even at full throttle under load all day long.
> > >> 
> > >> Cheers!
> > >> 
> > >> Bill Salisbury
> > >> 
> > >> PS. I run my old JD 420 only for bush hogging and I do add some 100 LL 
> > >> aviation fuel to my tank to take advantage of the lead content of that fuel. 
> > >> The 100 LL has about 4 times the amount of lead in it that auto fuel used to 
> > >> have in it, so running a 25/75% ratio of that leaded fuel, provides plenty 
> > >> of lead in the gas. -----And sometimes I don't add any. This AV gas is 
> > >> getting very expensive.
> > >> 
> > >> -----Original Message----- 
> > >> From: David R. Gerber
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 2:28 PM
> > >> To: 'Antique John Deere mailing list'
> > >> Subject: Re: [AJD] Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 4
> > >> 
> > >> My machine shop guru claims there is no need to put hardened valve seats in
> > >> any 2 cylinder engine, unless of course the valve seats need replaced
> > >> anyway. Reason: the hardened valve seats are only needed in high rpm
> > >> performance engines because the unleaded gas burns a little hotter, and over
> > >> time damages the valve seats. Never going to be the case in the low rpm
> > >> engines. He has rebuilt several motors for me, and all continue to perform
> > >> without flaw, without hardened valve seats. His recommendations are
> > >> different with the four, six, and eight cylinder engines.
> > >> 
> > >> Rev. Gerber
> > >> 
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > >> [mailto:antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of
> > >> Michael
> > >> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 5:29 PM
> > >> To: Antique John Deere mailing list
> > >> Subject: Re: [AJD] Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 4
> > >> 
> > >> I believe that the issue of lead and engine valves is a myth. Amoco ( now
> > >> part of BP) premium gasoline ALWAYS has been unleaded. I easily recall the
> > >> introduction of the Oldsmobile and Cadillac overhead valve V-8 engines in
> > >> 1949. The largest and most powerful previous engine for Oldsmobile was
> > >> straight-8 used from 1937 to 1948 inclusive. Not considered high performance
> > >> 
> > >> nor high compression. The V-8 was, relatively speaking, a powerhouse. Owners
> > >> 
> > >> seeking the best from the engine often used Amoco Premium- unleaded. Amoco
> > >> even often pictured the Oldsmobile in their ads. I knew some owners who used
> > >> 
> > >> the Amoco Premium exclusively. I never ever heard of valve problems
> > >> resulting and some of those cars were driven very hard.
> > >> 
> > >> --------------------------------------------------
> > >> From: "E. Thatcher" <ethatche at hotmail.com>
> > >> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 1:30 PM
> > >> To: <antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> > >> Subject: Re: [AJD] Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 4
> > >> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> I guess it depends on how much you are set on owning something green and
> > >>> yellow and what size will fit your needs. LP and Diesel wil get around
> > >>> the problems associated with extended use of no-lead gas in older engines
> > >>> although fuel additives or an overhaul to modify the valve train for
> > >>> unleaded gas can work. Allis D-17 and XT series are versitile, economical
> > >> 
> > >>> to operate and in the case of the D-17, easy to work on. Diesels are
> > >>> available although not common with the D-17. Oliver 1600 through 1800
> > >>> series and newer, Minneapolis Moline M5 and newer series, Case 730 and
> > >>> 830, IHC 706 and 806, and Massey Ferguson 85, super 90 and 165 and 185
> > >>> all will handle at least 4 bottom mounted plows and most will have three
> > >>> point hitch. We switched after years of two cylinder Deeres to an MF 85
> > >>> back when my Dad an I were farming together in the mid 60's through the
> > >>> eighties and never regretted the move. The MF 85 had the Ferguson System
> > >>> hydraulics and three point hitch and pulled a 5-14!
> > >>> fully mounted plow like a top. Even though it was a gas model, it was
> > >>> very economical to operated and easy to maintain, just right for small to
> > >>> medium sized farm. Good luck with your search. Eric ThatcherSt. Charles,
> > >> 
> > >>> MO
> > >>>> From: antique-johndeere-request at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > >>>> Subject: Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 4
> > >>>> To: antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > >>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 12:00:01 -0500
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Send Antique-johndeere mailing list submissions to
> > >>>> antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > >>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/antique-johndeere
> > >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > >>>> antique-johndeere-request at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
> > >>>> antique-johndeere-owner at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > >>>> than "Re: Contents of Antique-johndeere digest..."
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Today's Topics:
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 1. Re: Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 1; Ad Posting (Troy)
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Message: 1
> > >>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 05:58:21 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
> > >>>> From: Troy <tbogdan1 at earthlink.net>
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [AJD] Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 1; Ad
> > >>>> Posting
> > >>>> To: Antique John Deere mailing list
> > >>>> <antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> > >>>> Message-ID:
> > >>>> <3404952.1326106701368.JavaMail.root at mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Thanks for the insight Eric,
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> As I have gotten no responses, I don't have to make any choices yet. I
> > >>>> have been looking for the right tractor for a few years now off and on,
> > >>>> and have yet to actually find one that I can afford, or is in good
> > >>>> condition. Thanks again, Troy
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> From: "E. Thatcher" <ethatche at hotmail.com>
> > >>>>> Sent: Jan 4, 2012 5:19 PM
> > >>>>> To: antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [AJD] Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 1; Ad Posting
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> It's been awhile since I posted on the site but I still read the
> > >>>>> postings from time-to-time. Regarding moving to purchase a diesel JD; a
> > >> 
> > >>>>> 720 or 730 in good condition with factory three point hitch and with the
> > >> 
> > >>>>> remote hydraulic cylinder included would be a great choice if you intend
> > >> 
> > >>>>> to stay with the cylinder models. I would prefer the electric start to
> > >>>>> the pony start models but that might narrow your choices too much.
> > >>>>> Although I'm a life-long two-cylinder fan and have farmed with four of
> > >>>>> them over the years since I was a kid (a "B", two "A's" and a "G"), I
> > >>>>> would urge you to consider a 3020D or 4020D or newer model of similar
> > >>>>> size range if you're going to depend on it for real work over time. The
> > >> 
> > >>>>> 3020D will deliver the better economy of the two and will still pull
> > >>>>> 3-16's or 4-14's anywhere you want and has a more versitile transmission
> > >> 
> > >>>>> and hydraulics than the two cylinder models' replacements, the the "10"
> > >>>>> series and their successor the "20" series.
> > >>>>> Eric ThatcherSt. Charles, MO
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> Antique-johndeere mailing list
> > >>>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/antique-johndeere
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> ------------------------------
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Antique-johndeere mailing list
> > >>>> Antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > >>>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/antique-johndeere
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> End of Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 4
> > >>>> ************************************************
> > >>> 
> > >>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>> http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/antique-johndeere
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> -----
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> > >> 
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:21:48 -0600
> From: Paul Sawyer <mustangpaul at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [AJD] Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 4
> To: Antique John Deere mailing list
> 	<antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAFrRyiBQFGLRVnvrdhhV7RiiKUTgd36y8rhGWZvwqMru8cmvZg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Thanks, Mitch!  I appreciate it!
> 
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Mitchell Daly <md31043 at msn.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> >
> >
> > I go to a small local airstrip where they have a lot of single engine
> > Cessnas and Pipers and get my 5 gallon can filled up. I've never been
> > questioned about what I'm using it for. The AV gas does contain lead and it
> > has no other additives. One of the guys in our club, who is a retired US
> > Air pilot, is the one who put me onto the AV gas. He uses it in all of his
> > equipment, especially the small engines, and never has a problem. As far as
> > whether the problems with today's gas are ethanol related or additive
> > related, I can't speak. I do know that today's gas has caused a lot of seal
> > and diaphram problems with the two cylinder tractors for some of the guys
> > in our club. I've had to rebuild the carbs on some of my one cylinder
> > engines and since using the AV gas, no more problems. Avoid the Champion
> > plugs too.
> >
> > Mitch Daly- md31043 at msn.com
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
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> Antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com
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> 
> 
> End of Antique-johndeere Digest, Vol 82, Issue 7
> ************************************************
 		 	   		  


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