[AT] Starter Gear Sticking On Shaft

Fri Feb 17 05:19:58 PST 2012

Looking at the pictures of what the old style Bendix drive looks like, I
don't think there is a thrust washer.  If I was not  suspicious of
retrofitting something I don't quite understand, I would put one in there
and try it.  It seems to me a little thin washer would work great to keep
the gear from coming back so far, and if it did come back that far, give
the gear something to rub against that moved, not stagnant like the drive
shaft.

I may contact Bendix at some point and see what could be the matter; not
for warranty, but for curiosity to see if they have a fix for this
problem.  I can't believe that I am the only one who has had this problem.

I noticed just now while viewing pictures of the old Bendix drives that
there is a new "improved positive ratchet style drive" available from
Steiner, and I suppose other parts sources.  Has anybody tried the "new"
style, and if so, does it work better?

Ben Wagner

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 11:36 PM, charlie hill
<charliehill at embarqmail.com>wrote:

> Well Ben we all threw out enough ideas that sooner or later someone had to
> come up with a solution.
> I'm wondering if there was supposed to be a thrust washer back there for
> the
> drive to land against?
>
> Charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ben Wagner
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 8:23 PM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] Starter Gear Sticking On Shaft
>
> I pulled the starter tonight and switched out the Bendix drive.  I kept the
> new spring from the new starter, though, since the old spring from the '48
> starter wasn't too great.  As far as I know, I think this fixed the
> problem; I'll have to give it some time to know for sure.  The starter
> worked fine trying the Super A this evening.
>
> I think, after closely examining the new (problem) shaft, the gear is
> sticking at the very base of the drive, where the shaft widens and the
> threading ends.  It looks to be perhaps a rather careless design.  The
> threads come to an end, then the gear hits the widened part of the thread
> and sticks.  It almost makes me wonder if there is something missing.  Of
> course, if the warranty wasn't long gone, I would be after the company!
>
> Thanks, Charlie, for the idea!
>
> Ben Wagner
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 3:05 PM, charlie hill
> <charliehill at embarqmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Ben I didn't realize we were talking about a new starter.   Look inside
> > and
> > see if you see a shiny spot where the drive is jamming.  Might just be
> > defective or maybe something like a thrust washer got left out.
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ben Wagner
> > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:44 PM
> > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > Subject: Re: [AT] Starter Gear Sticking On Shaft
> >
> > That's exactly what is happening.  I wondered if the drive needed a shim
> > behind the gear at first also; however, it is a new starter and I have
> yet
> > had to disassemble it.  Unless the new starter drives are different,
> which
> > could be the case considering how most parts have changed and the new
> > starter has a different manufacturer, the old starter seems to be nearly
> > identical.
> >
> > The only other thing I have wondered, now that I have a solution in
> > Charlie's idea, is what would force the gear that far back fast enough to
> > jam it tight?  The spring there has enough power to push the gear back,
> > but
> > not as hard as what I suspect would jam it that tight.
> >
> > Ben Wagner
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Gene Dotson <gdotsly at watchtv.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > >    Been watching this thread and it seems to me it only binds when
> > > completely retracted then frees up as soon as it is moved?Tthen works
> > > nornally through the rest of the travel. Should there be a shim washer
> > > to
> > > prevent it from retracting too far?
> > >
> > >            Gene
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ben Wagner" <supera1948 at gmail.com>
> > > To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <
> > at at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > > >
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:26 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [AT] Starter Gear Sticking On Shaft
> > >
> > >
> > > >I was more concerned about graphite getting into the starter motor,
> not
> > > the
> > > > engine; I think I wrote that in a confusing manner.  I guess I need
> to
> > > get
> > > > some of that Never Seize since I have heard quite a few good things
> > > > about
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > I do have the old drive from my old starter, and I may just try to
> > > > switch
> > > > that drive into the new starter.  I hadn't thought of that idea,
> > > > Charlie,
> > > > so you may have just pointed me in the right direction!
> > > >
> > > > Ben Wagner
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:14 AM, charlie hill
> > > > <charliehill at embarqmail.com>wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Ben,  the easiest fix is to put a new starter drive on it.  If
> that's
> > > not
> > > >> an
> > > >> option and you can disassemble the drive you have do so, clean it
> > > >> well
> > > >> and
> > > >> sand the contact surfaces with fine emery cloth, clean it well and
> > > >> put
> > > it
> > > >> back together.    As far as the graphite goes.  I'm no Farmall
> expert
> > > but
> > > >> I
> > > >> don't think there is any path for anything coming off the starter
> > drive
> > > >> to
> > > >> get inside the engine. It would have to get past the rear crank seal
> > to
> > > >> do
> > > >> that.  If your rear seal is leaking that bad you've problems beyond
> > > >> what
> > > >> you
> > > >> are working on.  I wouldn't hesitate to try graphite.  Even if it
> > could
> > > >> get
> > > >> in the engine I don't think a small quantity of it would hurt a
> > > >> thing.
> > > >> If
> > > >> it was mine I'd still be willing to try Never Seize even though the
> > > >> conventional wisdom here says no.  I'd put some on and wipe most of
> > > >> it
> > > >> back
> > > >> off.  Believe me you can't get it all off without a lot of effort,
> > > >> solvent
> > > >> and rags.
> > > >>
> > > >> Charlie
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Ben Wagner
> > > >> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 8:45 AM
> > > >> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > > >> Subject: Re: [AT] Starter Gear Sticking On Shaft
> > > >>
> > > >> I had heard the same thing Larry had mentioned, but I have to agree
> > > >> with
> > > >> everyone else that the current dry, clean state of the starter drive
> > is
> > > >> not
> > > >> allow it to work like it should.  All I am concerned about is
> > > >> preventing
> > > >> anything dangerous for the motor from getting near my motor.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm inclined to try the graphite, but I hesitate to put anything
> like
> > > >> that
> > > >> near the motor.  Wouldn't graphite cause the motor trouble if it
> > > >> found
> > > >> its
> > > >> way into the case?
> > > >>
> > > >> What about a little WD-40 on the shaft where the gear gets stuck?
> > > >>
> > > >> Ben Wagner
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 7:22 AM, charlie hill
> > > >> <charliehill at embarqmail.com>wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > very well could be right Larry.  Maybe all Ben needs to do is
> spray
> > > his
> > > >> > down
> > > >> > with carb cleaner or something, add a little graphite and put it
> > back
> > > >> > together.  I'm a big fan of never seize but maybe this isn't a
> good
> > > >> > application for it.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Charlie
> > > >> >
> > > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > From: Larry Goss
> > > >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 7:50 PM
> > > >> > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > > >> > Subject: Re: [AT] Starter Gear Sticking On Shaft
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Humm.  This is an interesting thread. I thought starter Bendixes
> > were
> > > >> > supposed to be clean and dry -- that putting anything on them
> would
> > > >> > only
> > > >> > work temporarily,and was an invitation to a sticking drive.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Larry
> > > >> >
> > > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> > From: "charlie hill" <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
> > > >> > To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <
> > > >> at at lists.antique-tractor.com
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:59:32 PM
> > > >> > Subject: Re: [AT] Starter Gear Sticking On Shaft
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Actually I guess it's graphite in Never Seize and not metal as I
> > said
> > > >> > but
> > > >> > you have a point about the grease component.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Charlie
> > > >> >
> > > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > From: charlie hill
> > > >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 6:19 PM
> > > >> > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > > >> > Subject: Re: [AT] Starter Gear Sticking On Shaft
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Mike you may well be right.  I was thinking that the metal
> > > >> > particles
> > > in
> > > >> > never seize would do the trick.  Graphite might be better.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Charlie
> > > >> >
> > > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > From: Mike Sloane
> > > >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:00 PM
> > > >> > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> > > >> > Subject: Re: [AT] Starter Gear Sticking On Shaft
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I would be inclined to use something that won't trap dirt. I use
> > > >> > powdered graphite for stuff like that. I know that all the
> > > instructions
> > > >> > for starter drives say not to use any lubrication.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Mike
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On 2/15/2012 3:06 PM, charlie hill wrote:
> > > >> > > Ben, next time you pull it out and free it paint the shaft with
> > > >> > anti-seize
> > > >> > > compound (Never-Seize) and see if that helps.
> > > >> > > I've had the same thing happen before on some AC stuff.   I
> don't
> > > >> > > know
> > > >> > > that
> > > >> > > the Never Seize will fix it but it won't cost you much to find
> > out.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Maybe someone has a better answer or idea.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Charlie
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > > From: Ben Wagner
> > > >> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 2:49 PM
> > > >> > > To: Antique tractor email discussion group ; Farmall/IHC mailing
> > > list
> > > >> > > Subject: [AT] Starter Gear Sticking On Shaft
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Good afternoon,
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > I was wondering if anyone else has any trouble with a starter
> > > >> > > gear
> > > >> > > "sticking" to the shaft, not allowing the gear to go forward and
> > > >> > > engage
> > > >> > > the
> > > >> > > ring gear.  I have a new starter on the Super A, purchased about
> > > >> > > two
> > > >> > years
> > > >> > > ago, used minimally like most restored tractors, and this issue
> > > keeps
> > > >> > > happening predictably.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > I have pulled the starter many times, and each time I have to
> > knock
> > > >> > > the
> > > >> > > gear lose with a punch and a hammer.  The gear is always stuck
> at
> > > the
> > > >> > back
> > > >> > > of the threaded shaft.  The shaft, or the gear, has no burrs to
> > > catch
> > > >> > > the
> > > >> > > gear and hold it; burrs around that area was one of the first
> > > >> > > things
> > > >> > > I
> > > >> > > checked.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > If you have had this issue on your starter, what have you done
> to
> > > >> > > keep
> > > >> > > this
> > > >> > > from happening?
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Thanks,
> > > >> > > Ben Wagner
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