[AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis

Tue Feb 10 17:22:23 PST 2009

Henry -

Thanks for the detailed explanations. I have a good friend who's mgr of the 
maintenance/service garage in a big dealership near here. He says the very 
first order of business his mechanics are instructed to do in 
engine/electrical problems is hook the system up to the analyzer. The second 
is to be sure they put the $75 charge on that vehicle's service bill. 
Whatever they do after that is pretty much gravy on the bill.

Bob in CNY
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Henry Miller" <hank at millerfarm.com>
To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis

> Computer programmers are smarter than you are giving us credit for.  (Not 
> that we are perfect)  We never consider the sensors in isolation, but the 
> system as a whole.  If a sensor is bad only that one sensor will give a 
> bad reading, while if a control is bad several sensors will give a bad 
> reading. Also we can watch that sensor 10 times per revolution (or more) 
> if we need to, while no human can read it that fast.
>
> Of course we can't tell a bad connection from a bad sensor (but some 
> sensors are now digital so a bad connection cannot exist).  That is just 
> one of the many problems that fall into the 20% that you need a good tech 
> for.  Most problems are simple replace the sensor. Oxygon sensors are 
> notarious for failing (but getting better), a few other common failures 
> and 80% replace what the computer says is a good estimate.
>
> Yes there is a lot we can't diagnose, but the common failures have had a 
> lot of effort into making the diagnosis easy so the "stupid parts 
> replacer" does the right thing.
>
> Note that no tool you plug in does much diagnosys.  The computer on the 
> car is doing this, and we just ask for details.  Details can be things 
> like trouble codes, or the exact voltage the left o2 sensor is sending. 
> Some of the better tools can also command some thing (The egr valve is a 
> common one - it normally opens only on the hiway which makes diagnosys 
> hard in the shop).   ALL tools are limited by what the computer in the car 
> was programed to do at the factory.   Anything the factory decided not to 
> allow cannot be done by any tool.  (a chip could change that, but we won't 
> go there)
>
> As for tools, each manufacturer has a tool that their dealers use.   These 
> run from $8000-$40000, generally on the mid or high end of that range. 
> They only cover that manufacturer, and often only a few modles years, but 
> it is the gold standard for what it does.  A large part of my job is 
> figguring out what their tool is really doing (they tell us but often what 
> they tell us is wrong)
>
> Independants generally use either snap-on or otc tools (I work for otc). 
> I don't know about snapon, but we oem our tools to several big names so 
> your mechanic might use our tool by a different name.  I think our tools 
> start at $3000, but a good mechanic will probably have $10000 after all 
> the adaptor cables (for pre 1996 cars) is included.  There is also the 
> yearly update fee ($300-$900 depending on what kit they get)
>
> Sometimes a speciality shop will get other tools (many buy the OEM tool), 
> and there are other companies trying to get into the market, but snapon 
> and otc are the big players for independant shops.
>
> You can also buy OBDII readers at the auto parts stores for $50-150, they 
> are limited to OBDII codes.  This will still solve 70% of problems (the 
> same common problems that all cars have), but there isn't as much detail 
> so you do more blind parts replacing.
>
> Most autoparts stores will read the codes for you (and if you are going to 
> a store where they know something they can give suggestions that are 
> helpful), so I don't think buying a reader is worth it for more people. 
> If you are considering this route you should search online first.  There 
> are communities making free tools (laptop and adaptor cable required) that 
> for the one car they have is as good as anything (and worthless for 
> anything else).
>
> Note that the dollar values I gave are educated guesses.  I don't know the 
> true costs for any tool and couldn't tell you if I did.
>
> charliehill <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Henry,  the computer can tell you that a sensor is out of range and that a
>>control can not pull it back into range.  The computer can't tell you if
>>it's a bad sensor, a bad control, a vacuum leak or a burned valve.  If it
>>can I'd love to hear you elaborate on how?
>>
>>I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I just want to understand.  Also, I'd
>>like to know more about your diagnostic equipment.
>>
>>Charlie
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Henry Miller" <hank at millerfarm.com>
>>To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:30 PM
>>Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>>
>>
>>> As the maker of computer diagnostics (otc genisys), the computer knows
>>> about 80%, and the parts replacer just replaces that part (cheaper than
>>> fixing it).  There is no real need for brains, so leave them at the 
>>> door.
>>>
>>> That other 20%...  Well it is still a 4 cycle engine, and everthing from 
>>> a
>>> 1887 engine appies, plus a bunch of new things like EGR.  Some times
>>> understanding hot tube ignition or points helps solve problems even on
>>> modern distributorless ignition systems.  The most important part is
>>> problem solving skills combined with an understanding of how things 
>>> work.
>>> (Expirence is helpful too)  Once you have that the computer can tell you
>>> lots of interesting things, but if you don't know what it means knowing
>>> the data won't help.
>>>
>>> Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:51 PM, yestergears at intrstar.net
>>>><yestergears at intrstar.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Talking with the dealer, he told me they are looking for computer
>>>>> operators moreso than mechanics these days.... Amazing... He said
>>>>> the computer told them what to replace repair now.  Then all he needed
>>>>> was a parts changer.
>>>>
>>>>I say bullcrap.  That dealer is sadly mistaken, and he will be bitten
>>>>by his own perception that all he needs is a "parts changer".  This
>>>>perception is rampant in the automotive world these days too, although
>>>>most dealers and independent shops know the real score, and it's the
>>>>consumer who thinks the computer does all the real work and some
>>>>minimum-wage drone hangs the parts.  The fact is, as systems become
>>>>more complex, so do the repairs, and even higher-skilled technicians
>>>>are required.
>>>>
>>>>Steve O.
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>AT mailing list
>>>>http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>>
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>>
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>
> -- 
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.

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