[AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis

Wed Feb 11 06:28:06 PST 2009

I'm not one to shy away from a discussion or debate although I do try
to keep it civil.  No need to "bash" anybody, but we can all state our
own case from our respective individual viewpoint.

I don't think Henry said his equipment fixes problems 80% of the time.
 I think he said 80% of the work coming in the door can be handled by
a minimum-wage drone (my words; I think his words were to the effect
of "parts changer" and "leaving your brain at the door") as long as
that drone has an OTC Genisys to tell him what to do.

I disagree.

Also, understand that there are at least two markedly different
auto-repair camps:  you've got your dealerships, and you've got your
independents (the shops that are NOT new-car dealerships, and work on
nearly anything that comes thru the door).  A third camp would be the
independents that tend to specialize in one area such as Asian, or
German, or domestic.

Dealers fix two kinds of problems; anything at all that comes up under
warranty (most of which is pretty mundane), and, the really tough or
oddball problems that require the very pricey OEM scan tools that the
independent shops are forced to send back to the dealer because by and
large the independents don't have the OEM tooling.  A smart dealer
will have at least one GOOD tech on staff to handle these problems,
and a bunch of drones to handle the mundane.

Independents work on cars that have slipped beyond their warranty
periods.  They need scan tools that are capable of addressing the
widest variety of cars out there, and, those scan tools have to be
priced competitively.  The OTC Genisys and others in this category are
targetted primarly at the independents.  It is critical for the
designers of these scan tools to strike a balance between capabilities
and the cost to provide those capabilities.  Techs at an independent
shop need to have a wide range of competencies.

Steve O.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:41 AM, charliehill <charliehill at embarqmail.com> wrote:
> Stephen,  I don't want to start a bash Henry thread.  I appreciate the input
> he gave us.  However, I know how it works at a lot of dealerships.  Take for
> example the folks that worked on my Buick and on my Mom's pontiac.   They
> have an EXCELLENT reputation for customer service.  How, you might ask, can
> this be true based on what I said about them.  Here's how.  Most of their
> customers are relatively affluent and completely non mechanical.  They do a
> wonderful job of greeting you at the dealership and making you feel at home.
> They constantly tell you how hard they are working to find your problem and
> blame it all on the computers.  They have you fill out a customer care
> survey in which they tell you if you can't answer every question in a
> positive manner to let them know so they can resolve the problem and they do
> resolve the problem.  The problem is they resolve the problem by throwing
> more parts at it and charging you more money, or at some point conviencing
> you that it's impossible to fix a computer car and you better just trade it
> for a new one with an extended warranty.  When they finally do get a problem
> fixed the car leaves the dealership washed and waxed and looking like brand
> new (if you happen to have bought it from them and still have their
> dealership plate proudly displayed on the front of it).
>
> In short they do a wonderful job of public relations, all at the customers
> expense.  Getting back to Henry's point.  If you happen to be one of their
> customers and have plenty of money and blame everything on the computer and
> believe the technician when he tells you he had to replace half the parts on
> the car and the dealer makes plenty of money and so does the tech then
> everyone is happy with the computer car and the diagnostic equipment then
> everyone is happy with Henry's equipment and they tell Henry that the
> equipment finds 80% of the problems.
> It's just jerks like me that have the audacity to ask a question or two that
> cause the problems.  (By the way was that  a fine example of a run on
> sentence or what? LOL)
>
> Charlie
>
> Charlie
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Offiler" <soffiler at gmail.com>
> To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>
>
>> Charlie, you've basically got it right.  Modern aftermarket scanners
>> such as the Genisys are trying to provide enhanced functionality to
>> improve technician productivity, incorporating automated test
>> routines, troubleshooting assistance, etc.  BUT BUT BUT at the end of
>> the day they are still machines that read data and it is still largely
>> up to the technician to make sense of that data relative to the
>> problems they are trying to repair.  I'm not completely sure I
>> understand Henry's first paragraph but it seems that he works for OTC,
>> maker of the Genisys (and Pegisys) scan tools.   Perhaps the comments
>> in his first paragraph indicate he's toeing his company line, because
>> you can sell more scanners if you can convince people they do all the
>> work for you.
>>
>>
>> Steve O.
>> (who is also professionally involved in the auto repair industry)
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 4:56 PM, charliehill <charliehill at embarqmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Henry,  the computer can tell you that a sensor is out of range and that
>>> a
>>> control can not pull it back into range.  The computer can't tell you if
>>> it's a bad sensor, a bad control, a vacuum leak or a burned valve.  If it
>>> can I'd love to hear you elaborate on how?
>>>
>>> I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I just want to understand.  Also,
>>> I'd
>>> like to know more about your diagnostic equipment.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Henry Miller" <hank at millerfarm.com>
>>> To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] How about this orange tractor, Attn: Travis
>>>
>>>
>>>> As the maker of computer diagnostics (otc genisys), the computer knows
>>>> about 80%, and the parts replacer just replaces that part (cheaper than
>>>> fixing it).  There is no real need for brains, so leave them at the
>>>> door.
>>>>
>>>> That other 20%...  Well it is still a 4 cycle engine, and everthing from
>>>> a
>>>> 1887 engine appies, plus a bunch of new things like EGR.  Some times
>>>> understanding hot tube ignition or points helps solve problems even on
>>>> modern distributorless ignition systems.  The most important part is
>>>> problem solving skills combined with an understanding of how things
>>>> work.
>>>> (Expirence is helpful too)  Once you have that the computer can tell you
>>>> lots of interesting things, but if you don't know what it means knowing
>>>> the data won't help.
>>>>
>>>> Stephen Offiler <soffiler at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 2:51 PM, yestergears at intrstar.net
>>>>><yestergears at intrstar.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Talking with the dealer, he told me they are looking for computer
>>>>>> operators moreso than mechanics these days.... Amazing... He said
>>>>>> the computer told them what to replace repair now.  Then all he needed
>>>>>> was a parts changer.
>>>>>
>>>>>I say bullcrap.  That dealer is sadly mistaken, and he will be bitten
>>>>>by his own perception that all he needs is a "parts changer".  This
>>>>>perception is rampant in the automotive world these days too, although
>>>>>most dealers and independent shops know the real score, and it's the
>>>>>consumer who thinks the computer does all the real work and some
>>>>>minimum-wage drone hangs the parts.  The fact is, as systems become
>>>>>more complex, so do the repairs, and even higher-skilled technicians
>>>>>are required.
>>>>>
>>>>>Steve O.
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>AT mailing list
>>>>>http://www.antique-tractor.com/mailman/listinfo/at
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>
>>>
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