[AT] energy

[charlie hill]

Steve,  as I said earlier, I had this same discussion last week with an oil 
jobber who lives with these issues every day.  The company has a fleet of 
tankers and is primarily in the gasoline and diesel business but they also 
deal in bio-diesel because state vehicles in NC are mandated to burn bio.  I 
was surprised last week when he told me that it takes more energy to produce 
gasoline than you get back from it but I have no reason to doubt him.  I 
suspect, though I didn't discuss it with him, that the difference is made up 
in other products that come of the same distillation column.

He also thinks that ethanol and bio is going to fly long term.  He says the 
paper companies are working on making ethanol from wood chips and still 
using the chips in their production process.  I suspect not to make paper 
but to fuel their power houses.  They use bark and waste chips to do that 
now.  They could probably take the sugars out of the "hog fuel" as they call 
it and still burn what's left over.

I'm not taking a position here other than to say that I don't think CO2 is a 
problem and that a lot of the hype over carbon fuels is bunk.  Other than 
that I'm just curious about the process.  It's a known fact that in 
generations gone by things that were dismissed as impossible are now in 
every day use.  As a professor told us in class one day, Engineering is 
materials limited.  Meaning given the right materials (or technologies) 
anything is possible (at some price).

Charlie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <soffiler at ct.metrocast.net>
To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [AT] energy


> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: Claudeprintequip at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [AT] energy
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:08:00 EST
>
>>I'm not an engineer or anything else.   I am simply
>>curious.  Does your  statement then mean we
>>get more energy return from gasoline than the energy used
>>in the   manufacturing process?
>
> The terms of interest are "net energy balance" and "EROEI"
> (energy returned over energy input).  The raging debate
> whether ethanol is a winner or loser uses these terms
> constantly.  Some of the debates compare ethanol to
> gasoline.  Everything I can find on the subject pegs
> gasoline at 5:1... that is, you get five times as much
> energy back as you expended to manufacture it.
>
>
>>... I thought
>>when we changed anything from one form to another there was
>>some energy   loss...
>
> True.  Nothing is perfect in this world.
>
>>...  Do we not use more
>>energy producing a gallon of gasoline than the gallon can
>>produce?
>
> Not even close, see above.  We get back five times as much
> as we put in.
>
>>...  Also we  create pollutants twice in
>>this process.   I have no idea what the comparative
>>percentage of  energy  return from manufacturing cost and
>>resultant pollution would be  from  fuel cell  versus
>>gasoline.
>
> I don't follow you.
>
>>... I can't  believe a bunch of  modern engineers
>>are really  trying to get more energy back than the energy
>>used  in the manufacturing process...
>
> That statement make sense when discussing any form of energy
> STORAGE.... rechargeable batteries, hydraulic or pneumatic
> accumulators, capacitors, flywheels...
>
> You are apparently missing the fact that gasoline is an
> energy SOURCE, that merely needs some minor energy input in
> order to transform it from crude oil into gasoline.  You put
> one energy unit into the transformation, and you get five
> units of usable energy from the resulting product.
>
>
>>I'm not trying to be argumentative. I don't like giving up
>>on the fuel  cell.
>> It doesn't produce any pollutants. There is secondary
>>value to  be added  back to fuel cell because of zero
>>pollution. I don't know if there is a  way to  determine
>>the dollar value of this benefit or not either.
>>Nevertheless, it  has definite and very desirable secondary
>>value.
>
> What fuel source are you assuming for the fuel cell?
>
>
> Best regards,
> Steve O.
>
>
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