[AT] OT: Gas story - now thermo

Fri Jul 6 09:47:43 PDT 2007

I'm not sure I'm getting this.  Don't most "air conditioning" (meaning
heating or cooling systems) heat or cool the interior air of the living
spaces, without exchanging much or any air with the outside environment?

Paul, was the guy heating or cooling the outside air to send inside his
house?  If so, where was he venting the already heated or cooled
interior air to?

If this is the case, he could just use the 58 degree air directly for
cooling, and for heating he was using more energy to heat the 58 degree
air over just reheating the indoor air which was probably 10 or so
degrees warmer.

Maybe I'm not understanding what is being talked about...

Rick 

-----Original Message-----
From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
[mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of charlie hill
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 11:16 AM
To: Antique tractor email discussion group
Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story - now thermo

Yep that's what I have in mind.  It wouldn't really take all that much
room 
Paul.  You could dig a pit and coil the pipe inside it or dig up a part
of 
your yard and zig zag the pipe back and forth then cover it up.  In my
case 
I have plenty of land to work with so if I do it I'll probably just do
one 
long, curved trench.

Charlie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul" <pwaugh at mchsi.com>
To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'" 
<at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story - now thermo

>I read an article 15-20 years ago, about a farmer in IA or NE, he ran
1000
> plus feet of 6 or 8 inch field tile down about 6 feet. One end rose to
> ground level where he had cover over it similar to a salt feed where
the
> wind moved it to pick up a breeze.  The other end went to the furnace,
he
> claimed he had approximately 56-58 degree air he was heating or
cooling,
> depending on time of year .. yeah I think it should work, I always
wanted 
> to
> try it, just never had the space.
> Paul Waugh - IN
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of charlie
hill
> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 8:54 AM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>
> I've been toying with an idea for a modified geothermal heat pump.
> Instead of an underground cooling loop or water source how about an
> underground air shaft to provide near constant temp air to a
conventional
> heat pump?
>
> What I had in mind was a few hundred feet of corrugated plastic pipe 
> (maybe
> 8" or so) burried 8 or 10 feet deep with the ends feeding into some
sort 
> of
> enclosure for the conventional heat pump that would allow the
stabilized
> ground temp air to flow too the heat pump and the hot air comming off
of 
> the
>
> heat pump to be exhausted to the outside.  It's a plan without any of
the
> details worked out.  Does anyone think it might work?
>
> Charlie
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "George Willer" <gwill at gwill.net>
> To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'"
> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 4:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>
>
>> Jerry,
>>
>> We have more in common than I thought.  We both have extensive
experience
>> with Overhead Doors, and now I find the common experience with ground
>> source
>> heat pumps.
>>
>> If people knew more about them they'd be much more popular than they
are.
>>
>> George Willer
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com [mailto:at-
>>> bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Rhodes
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 1:17 PM
>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>>>
>>> Well, time for my dime, Rick you are right. I retired from the Navy
in
>>> 75'
>>> got a job with a Co (Insource Data Inc)from the windy city, funded
by U
>>> of
>>> WI to do ground temp taking. We drilled down to 3, 5 an 7 meters to
>>> measure
>>> temps for 24 hours in 7 locations ( Fargo, ND, Marshall MN, Fort
Dodge
>>> IA,
>>> Normal IL, Marion IN, Lansing MI, Marion OH, New Castle PA an
Hazelton
>>> PA)
>>>
>>> The diffance in temps was about 4 deg at 59 degs..hi 62 degs an low
56
>>> degs.. this was done in June of 77' and again in 82'.( paid better
in
>>> 82',
>>> more travel money)
>>>
>>> We found out that this data was to be used by a Thermal Eng Co in
>>> installing
>>> under ground heating/cooling system.
>>>
>>> Enjoyed the work, so your data is right the temp is normally
constant
>>> below
>>> 25 feet.
>>>
>>> Jerry NW Ohio
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Rick Weaver" <Rick_Weaver at hilton.com>
>>> To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-
>>> tractor.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 11:15 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>>>
>>>
>>> > Good morning!
>>> >
>>> > This debate got me to try to research this question because I was 
>>> > under
>>> > the impression that not too far below ground (at least just a few 
>>> > feet)
>>> > that it stayed constantly 60 degrees or so.
>>> >
>>> > Without posting the links, I saw a couple of research sites which
>>> > stated
>>> > that the below ground temperature remained constant year over year
at
>>> > 15-20 meters.  *No site* says that worldwide the ground
temperature at
>>> > that depth is the same.  It says that it approximates the annual
>>> > average
>>> > temperature at that depth.  The further down you go (measured in
>>> > hundreds of feet), the warmer it gets due to heat from the core.
>>> >
>>> > So take the average annual temperature in your area, and at 15
meters
>>> > (more than 45 feet) the soil temperature should match.  Shallower
than
>>> > that, the daily temperature averages begin affecting the
measurements.
>>> > At 1 meter, the previous day's average temperature is
approximated.
>>> >
>>> > I didn't expect this answer.  I always felt the cold earth
wherever I
>>> > dug a hole and it reinforced the previous belief that the 60
degree
>>> > constant was true.
>>> >
>>> > Rick Weaver
>>> >
>>> > P.S. how this relates to gasoline in underground tanks - unless 
>>> > they're
>>> > buried 45 feet below ground, the daily average temperature will
affect
>>> > the temperature of the gas stored there.  And even then, the
>>> > temperature
>>> > will match the average annual temperature.  The 60 degree constant
>>> > isn't.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>> > [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of George
>>> > Willer
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:32 PM
>>> > To: 'Antique tractor email discussion group'
>>> > Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>>> >
>>> > Walt,
>>> >
>>> > I guess it must be the different schools we went to.
>>> >
>>> > First, the ground temperature is NOT the same over the entire
country.
>>> > It's
>>> > very close to the average year round air temperature of the
area...
>>> > considerably warmer in the south.  The air temperature and
sunshine
>>> > (and
>>> > night time radiation) is mostly why the ground temperature is what
it
>>> > is
>>> > in
>>> > any given area.
>>> >
>>> > Second, the pumps meter by volume, not by weight, so when the gas
is
>>> > expanded by higher temperature there isn't as much energy in a 
>>> > measured
>>> > gallon.
>>> >
>>> > Third, it's not really the temperature of the ground, it's the
>>> > temperature
>>> > of the contents of the tanker when delivering to a high volume
>>> > outlet...
>>> > the
>>> > gas is warmed by a long trip through hot summer air and doesn't
reach
>>> > the
>>> > temperature of the ground.
>>> >
>>> > Forth, Our division of weights and measures requires pumps to be
>>> > accurate
>>> > within 10%.  They almost never deliver more than standard.  :-(
>>> >
>>> > Fifth,  Sometimes things may seem like a bunch of bull if you
don't
>>> > understand them.
>>> >
>>> > George Willer
>>> >
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com [mailto:at-
>>> >> bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of
RonMyers at wildblue.net
>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:59 PM
>>> >> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>> >> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>>> >>
>>> >> George,
>>> >> The temperature at the point where the underground tanks are
stored 
>>> >> is
>>> > on
>>> >> average 55 deg.  No matter what part of the country that you live
in.
>>> >> North south east or west . this is set by the government
regulations.
>>> > so
>>> >> it really doesn't matter where you get it from.
>>> >> In almost all states the meters on the pumps are tested to
guarantee
>>> > their
>>> >> accuracy so this whole bunch of Bull is just that a bunch of
Bull.
>>> >> You a full gallon of gas at each station or the government will
come
>>> > down
>>> >> hard on the owners.
>>> >>
>>> >> Ron
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> > Some folks completely miss the point.  It's the temperature of
the
>>> > gas
>>> >> > when
>>> >> > it's metered through the gas pump at the station that makes the
>>> >> > difference.
>>> >> > The gas that's expanded because it's warmer when it's measured
and
>>> > sold
>>> >> is
>>> >> > the point.  You're paying for slightly more than you're
actually
>>> >> getting.
>>> >> > I
>>> >> > doubt the difference that's claimed is as large as stated, but
>>> > there's a
>>> >> > difference anyway.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > George Willer
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> When you put the cold fuel in your hot tank sitting in the sun
>>> >> alongside
>>> >> >> the Mack doesn't it get warmer.
>>> >> >> I can't believe that anybody would believe that the
temperature of
>>> > the
>>> >> >> fuel would make difference. If its gasoline its preheated
before 
>>> >> >> it
>>> > go
>>> >> >> into the Carb. If its diesel it preheated in the manifold same
as
>>> > fuel
>>> >> >> injected cars.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Ron
>>> >> >
>>> >> > _______________________________________________
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>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
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