[AT] OT: Gas story

charlie hill chill8 at suddenlink.net
Fri Jul 6 07:32:57 PDT 2007


Larry,  I can imagine what those problems must be but I won't be actually 
conditioning any underground air.  I'll just be pulling some air through a 
pipe and letting it cool/heat the environment directly around heat pump.

Charlie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry D Goss" <rlgoss at evansville.net>
To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story


> Talk to some mining engineers about the problems of conditioning air in 
> mine
> shafts before you go too far on this concept, Charlie.  It isn't a bed of
> roses.
>
> Larry
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "charlie hill" <chill8 at suddenlink.net>
> To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" 
> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 6:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>
>
>> I've been toying with an idea for a modified geothermal heat pump.
>> Instead of an underground cooling loop or water source how about an
>> underground air shaft to provide near constant temp air to a conventional
>> heat pump?
>>
>> What I had in mind was a few hundred feet of corrugated plastic pipe
>> (maybe
>> 8" or so) burried 8 or 10 feet deep with the ends feeding into some sort
>> of
>> enclosure for the conventional heat pump that would allow the stabilized
>> ground temp air to flow too the heat pump and the hot air comming off of
>> the
>> heat pump to be exhausted to the outside.  It's a plan without any of the
>> details worked out.  Does anyone think it might work?
>>
>> Charlie
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "George Willer" <gwill at gwill.net>
>> To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'"
>> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 4:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>>
>>
>>> Jerry,
>>>
>>> We have more in common than I thought.  We both have extensive 
>>> experience
>>> with Overhead Doors, and now I find the common experience with ground
>>> source
>>> heat pumps.
>>>
>>> If people knew more about them they'd be much more popular than they 
>>> are.
>>>
>>> George Willer
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com [mailto:at-
>>>> bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Rhodes
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 1:17 PM
>>>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>>>>
>>>> Well, time for my dime, Rick you are right. I retired from the Navy in
>>>> 75'
>>>> got a job with a Co (Insource Data Inc)from the windy city, funded by U
>>>> of
>>>> WI to do ground temp taking. We drilled down to 3, 5 an 7 meters to
>>>> measure
>>>> temps for 24 hours in 7 locations ( Fargo, ND, Marshall MN, Fort Dodge
>>>> IA,
>>>> Normal IL, Marion IN, Lansing MI, Marion OH, New Castle PA an Hazelton
>>>> PA)
>>>>
>>>> The diffance in temps was about 4 deg at 59 degs..hi 62 degs an low 56
>>>> degs.. this was done in June of 77' and again in 82'.( paid better in
>>>> 82',
>>>> more travel money)
>>>>
>>>> We found out that this data was to be used by a Thermal Eng Co in
>>>> installing
>>>> under ground heating/cooling system.
>>>>
>>>> Enjoyed the work, so your data is right the temp is normally constant
>>>> below
>>>> 25 feet.
>>>>
>>>> Jerry NW Ohio
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Rick Weaver" <Rick_Weaver at hilton.com>
>>>> To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-
>>>> tractor.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 11:15 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Good morning!
>>>> >
>>>> > This debate got me to try to research this question because I was
>>>> > under
>>>> > the impression that not too far below ground (at least just a few
>>>> > feet)
>>>> > that it stayed constantly 60 degrees or so.
>>>> >
>>>> > Without posting the links, I saw a couple of research sites which
>>>> > stated
>>>> > that the below ground temperature remained constant year over year at
>>>> > 15-20 meters.  *No site* says that worldwide the ground temperature 
>>>> > at
>>>> > that depth is the same.  It says that it approximates the annual
>>>> > average
>>>> > temperature at that depth.  The further down you go (measured in
>>>> > hundreds of feet), the warmer it gets due to heat from the core.
>>>> >
>>>> > So take the average annual temperature in your area, and at 15 meters
>>>> > (more than 45 feet) the soil temperature should match.  Shallower 
>>>> > than
>>>> > that, the daily temperature averages begin affecting the 
>>>> > measurements.
>>>> > At 1 meter, the previous day's average temperature is approximated.
>>>> >
>>>> > I didn't expect this answer.  I always felt the cold earth wherever I
>>>> > dug a hole and it reinforced the previous belief that the 60 degree
>>>> > constant was true.
>>>> >
>>>> > Rick Weaver
>>>> >
>>>> > P.S. how this relates to gasoline in underground tanks - unless
>>>> > they're
>>>> > buried 45 feet below ground, the daily average temperature will 
>>>> > affect
>>>> > the temperature of the gas stored there.  And even then, the
>>>> > temperature
>>>> > will match the average annual temperature.  The 60 degree constant
>>>> > isn't.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> > From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>>> > [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of George
>>>> > Willer
>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:32 PM
>>>> > To: 'Antique tractor email discussion group'
>>>> > Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>>>> >
>>>> > Walt,
>>>> >
>>>> > I guess it must be the different schools we went to.
>>>> >
>>>> > First, the ground temperature is NOT the same over the entire 
>>>> > country.
>>>> > It's
>>>> > very close to the average year round air temperature of the area...
>>>> > considerably warmer in the south.  The air temperature and sunshine
>>>> > (and
>>>> > night time radiation) is mostly why the ground temperature is what it
>>>> > is
>>>> > in
>>>> > any given area.
>>>> >
>>>> > Second, the pumps meter by volume, not by weight, so when the gas is
>>>> > expanded by higher temperature there isn't as much energy in a
>>>> > measured
>>>> > gallon.
>>>> >
>>>> > Third, it's not really the temperature of the ground, it's the
>>>> > temperature
>>>> > of the contents of the tanker when delivering to a high volume
>>>> > outlet...
>>>> > the
>>>> > gas is warmed by a long trip through hot summer air and doesn't reach
>>>> > the
>>>> > temperature of the ground.
>>>> >
>>>> > Forth, Our division of weights and measures requires pumps to be
>>>> > accurate
>>>> > within 10%.  They almost never deliver more than standard.  :-(
>>>> >
>>>> > Fifth,  Sometimes things may seem like a bunch of bull if you don't
>>>> > understand them.
>>>> >
>>>> > George Willer
>>>> >
>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com [mailto:at-
>>>> >> bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of 
>>>> >> RonMyers at wildblue.net
>>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:59 PM
>>>> >> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>>>> >>
>>>> >> George,
>>>> >> The temperature at the point where the underground tanks are stored
>>>> >> is
>>>> > on
>>>> >> average 55 deg.  No matter what part of the country that you live 
>>>> >> in.
>>>> >> North south east or west . this is set by the government 
>>>> >> regulations.
>>>> > so
>>>> >> it really doesn't matter where you get it from.
>>>> >> In almost all states the meters on the pumps are tested to guarantee
>>>> > their
>>>> >> accuracy so this whole bunch of Bull is just that a bunch of Bull.
>>>> >> You a full gallon of gas at each station or the government will come
>>>> > down
>>>> >> hard on the owners.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Ron
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > Some folks completely miss the point.  It's the temperature of the
>>>> > gas
>>>> >> > when
>>>> >> > it's metered through the gas pump at the station that makes the
>>>> >> > difference.
>>>> >> > The gas that's expanded because it's warmer when it's measured and
>>>> > sold
>>>> >> is
>>>> >> > the point.  You're paying for slightly more than you're actually
>>>> >> getting.
>>>> >> > I
>>>> >> > doubt the difference that's claimed is as large as stated, but
>>>> > there's a
>>>> >> > difference anyway.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > George Willer
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> When you put the cold fuel in your hot tank sitting in the sun
>>>> >> alongside
>>>> >> >> the Mack doesn't it get warmer.
>>>> >> >> I can't believe that anybody would believe that the temperature 
>>>> >> >> of
>>>> > the
>>>> >> >> fuel would make difference. If its gasoline its preheated before
>>>> >> >> it
>>>> > go
>>>> >> >> into the Carb. If its diesel it preheated in the manifold same as
>>>> > fuel
>>>> >> >> injected cars.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Ron
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > _______________________________________________
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>>>> >>
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