[AT] OT: Gas story

charlie hill chill8 at suddenlink.net
Fri Jul 6 07:31:07 PDT 2007 

George and Larry,

My idea is more of a passive approach.  I'm thinking to can put the pipe 
under the ground and allow air to flow somewhat slowly through it and then 
site the conventional heat pump directly above the flow of air.  That way, 
hopefully, the air will be lowered/raised to a temperature below or above 
(depending on season) that of the ambient outdoor air and with less 
temperature differential than that of the indoor air.  That should take some 
of the load off of the conventional heat pump in weather extremes.  The site 
I have picked out to try it is very light sandy land, easy to dig in.  All 
I'll have in the underground part is the cost of the pipe and whatever 
enclosures I put over the end of the "shaft" and a few hours of backhoe 
time.  It might require some sort of ID fan in the shaft.  If that turns out 
to be the case then the expense of running the fan enters the equation.

Since I won't have that much money in it, if I can prevent the heat strips 
from running on a cold night or keep the AC from going into overload on a 
very hot day I'll eventually come out on the deal I think.  Maybe some 
thermal mass somewhere in the system would help too.

Charlie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "George Willer" <gwill at gwill.net>
To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'" 
<at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story


> Charlie,
>
> It can work.  My BIL installed just such a system.  It wasn't as efficient
> as it could be partly because of the pumping losses.  That's the same
> problem most ground source systems have.  Too much pumping and too many 
> heat
> exchangers.  The most efficient is the direct exchange system where the
> refrigerant is pumped by the compressor directly to the pit or trench
> source.  6 feet is plenty deep.
>
> George Willer
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com [mailto:at-
>> bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of charlie hill
>> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 8:54 AM
>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>>
>> I've been toying with an idea for a modified geothermal heat pump.
>> Instead of an underground cooling loop or water source how about an
>> underground air shaft to provide near constant temp air to a conventional
>> heat pump?
>>
>> What I had in mind was a few hundred feet of corrugated plastic pipe
>> (maybe
>> 8" or so) burried 8 or 10 feet deep with the ends feeding into some sort
>> of
>> enclosure for the conventional heat pump that would allow the stabilized
>> ground temp air to flow too the heat pump and the hot air comming off of
>> the
>> heat pump to be exhausted to the outside.  It's a plan without any of the
>> details worked out.  Does anyone think it might work?
>>
>> Charlie
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "George Willer" <gwill at gwill.net>
>> To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'"
>> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 4:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>>
>>
>> > Jerry,
>> >
>> > We have more in common than I thought.  We both have extensive
>> experience
>> > with Overhead Doors, and now I find the common experience with ground
>> > source
>> > heat pumps.
>> >
>> > If people knew more about them they'd be much more popular than they
>> are.
>> >
>> > George Willer
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com [mailto:at-
>> >> bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Rhodes
>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 1:17 PM
>> >> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>> >> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>> >>
>> >> Well, time for my dime, Rick you are right. I retired from the Navy in
>> >> 75'
>> >> got a job with a Co (Insource Data Inc)from the windy city, funded by 
>> >> U
>> >> of
>> >> WI to do ground temp taking. We drilled down to 3, 5 an 7 meters to
>> >> measure
>> >> temps for 24 hours in 7 locations ( Fargo, ND, Marshall MN, Fort Dodge
>> >> IA,
>> >> Normal IL, Marion IN, Lansing MI, Marion OH, New Castle PA an Hazelton
>> >> PA)
>> >>
>> >> The diffance in temps was about 4 deg at 59 degs..hi 62 degs an low 56
>> >> degs.. this was done in June of 77' and again in 82'.( paid better in
>> >> 82',
>> >> more travel money)
>> >>
>> >> We found out that this data was to be used by a Thermal Eng Co in
>> >> installing
>> >> under ground heating/cooling system.
>> >>
>> >> Enjoyed the work, so your data is right the temp is normally constant
>> >> below
>> >> 25 feet.
>> >>
>> >> Jerry NW Ohio
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Rick Weaver" <Rick_Weaver at hilton.com>
>> >> To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-
>> >> tractor.com>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 11:15 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Good morning!
>> >> >
>> >> > This debate got me to try to research this question because I was
>> under
>> >> > the impression that not too far below ground (at least just a few
>> feet)
>> >> > that it stayed constantly 60 degrees or so.
>> >> >
>> >> > Without posting the links, I saw a couple of research sites which
>> >> > stated
>> >> > that the below ground temperature remained constant year over year 
>> >> > at
>> >> > 15-20 meters.  *No site* says that worldwide the ground temperature
>> at
>> >> > that depth is the same.  It says that it approximates the annual
>> >> > average
>> >> > temperature at that depth.  The further down you go (measured in
>> >> > hundreds of feet), the warmer it gets due to heat from the core.
>> >> >
>> >> > So take the average annual temperature in your area, and at 15 
>> >> > meters
>> >> > (more than 45 feet) the soil temperature should match.  Shallower
>> than
>> >> > that, the daily temperature averages begin affecting the
>> measurements.
>> >> > At 1 meter, the previous day's average temperature is approximated.
>> >> >
>> >> > I didn't expect this answer.  I always felt the cold earth wherever 
>> >> > I
>> >> > dug a hole and it reinforced the previous belief that the 60 degree
>> >> > constant was true.
>> >> >
>> >> > Rick Weaver
>> >> >
>> >> > P.S. how this relates to gasoline in underground tanks - unless
>> they're
>> >> > buried 45 feet below ground, the daily average temperature will
>> affect
>> >> > the temperature of the gas stored there.  And even then, the
>> >> > temperature
>> >> > will match the average annual temperature.  The 60 degree constant
>> >> > isn't.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>> >> > [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of George
>> >> > Willer
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:32 PM
>> >> > To: 'Antique tractor email discussion group'
>> >> > Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>> >> >
>> >> > Walt,
>> >> >
>> >> > I guess it must be the different schools we went to.
>> >> >
>> >> > First, the ground temperature is NOT the same over the entire
>> country.
>> >> > It's
>> >> > very close to the average year round air temperature of the area...
>> >> > considerably warmer in the south.  The air temperature and sunshine
>> >> > (and
>> >> > night time radiation) is mostly why the ground temperature is what 
>> >> > it
>> >> > is
>> >> > in
>> >> > any given area.
>> >> >
>> >> > Second, the pumps meter by volume, not by weight, so when the gas is
>> >> > expanded by higher temperature there isn't as much energy in a
>> measured
>> >> > gallon.
>> >> >
>> >> > Third, it's not really the temperature of the ground, it's the
>> >> > temperature
>> >> > of the contents of the tanker when delivering to a high volume
>> >> > outlet...
>> >> > the
>> >> > gas is warmed by a long trip through hot summer air and doesn't 
>> >> > reach
>> >> > the
>> >> > temperature of the ground.
>> >> >
>> >> > Forth, Our division of weights and measures requires pumps to be
>> >> > accurate
>> >> > within 10%.  They almost never deliver more than standard.  :-(
>> >> >
>> >> > Fifth,  Sometimes things may seem like a bunch of bull if you don't
>> >> > understand them.
>> >> >
>> >> > George Willer
>> >> >
>> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com [mailto:at-
>> >> >> bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of
>> RonMyers at wildblue.net
>> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:59 PM
>> >> >> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>> >> >>
>> >> >> George,
>> >> >> The temperature at the point where the underground tanks are stored
>> is
>> >> > on
>> >> >> average 55 deg.  No matter what part of the country that you live
>> in.
>> >> >> North south east or west . this is set by the government
>> regulations.
>> >> > so
>> >> >> it really doesn't matter where you get it from.
>> >> >> In almost all states the meters on the pumps are tested to 
>> >> >> guarantee
>> >> > their
>> >> >> accuracy so this whole bunch of Bull is just that a bunch of Bull.
>> >> >> You a full gallon of gas at each station or the government will 
>> >> >> come
>> >> > down
>> >> >> hard on the owners.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Ron
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Some folks completely miss the point.  It's the temperature of 
>> >> >> > the
>> >> > gas
>> >> >> > when
>> >> >> > it's metered through the gas pump at the station that makes the
>> >> >> > difference.
>> >> >> > The gas that's expanded because it's warmer when it's measured 
>> >> >> > and
>> >> > sold
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> > the point.  You're paying for slightly more than you're actually
>> >> >> getting.
>> >> >> > I
>> >> >> > doubt the difference that's claimed is as large as stated, but
>> >> > there's a
>> >> >> > difference anyway.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > George Willer
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [AT] OT: Gas story
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> When you put the cold fuel in your hot tank sitting in the sun
>> >> >> alongside
>> >> >> >> the Mack doesn't it get warmer.
>> >> >> >> I can't believe that anybody would believe that the temperature
>> of
>> >> > the
>> >> >> >> fuel would make difference. If its gasoline its preheated before
>> it
>> >> > go
>> >> >> >> into the Carb. If its diesel it preheated in the manifold same 
>> >> >> >> as
>> >> > fuel
>> >> >> >> injected cars.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Ron
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
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>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
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