[AT] Canola to diesel

Mon Feb 5 17:55:04 PST 2007

Here is some more things I learned:

"splitting hairs is exactly what is being done. Stating that an IDI engine 
is not a diesel is ignorant at best. There are, as I am sure you know, 
several reasons for the design of an IDI engine: Better control of flame 
front, better control of swirl patterns to insure fuel mixing, smaller area 
to pre-heat, simpler requirement of piston crown design and less force on 
the piston crown, ability to burn less refined fuels by containing a 
majority of carbon build-up, quieter operation, slower burn allowing more 
control with primitive injectors, lowered injector pressure, etc, etc, etc. 
As unit injector technology improved the ability to accurately meter fuel at 
higher pressures made direct injected engines capable of the same quiet and 
smooth low speed operations as IDI engines, advances like pre-injection also 
greatly improved emissions.

The term "Throttle" is not inaccurate at all, in many injection pumps the 
fuel flow is controlled by a "throttling pintle nozzle". While a diesel has 
no air throttle, it does have a fuel throttle. The terms: Full throttle, 
Wide open throttle, partial throttle, trailing throttle, throttle response, 
etc are still used in factory training manuals by Mercedes, Bosch, VW, BMW, 
Mann, Detroit Diesel, Banks and others. Magneti Marelli produces diesel 
throttle bodies, Delphi makes Diesel Electronic Throttle Controls, My bus 
has an Air throttle.It is frankly ridiculous to state that an IDI engine is 
not a diesel.

The "Trottle valve housing" is designed to more accurately control vacuum 
because the fuel rail is dampened and controlled by a leather vacuum 
diaphram, I have attached a photo and you can clearly see the vacuum line 
running from this valve to the IP. While is does not choke off the air as a 
throttle plate would in a gas vehicle, it does balance vacuum to slow the 
engine more rapidly...

http://www.yazallcrop.com/images/throttle1.jpg

Throttle valve closed and open:

http://www.yazallcrop.com/images/throttle2.jpg

The spring to the right in the image holds it closed until the vacuum of the 
engnine draws it open, the rod on the left connects to the throttle linkage 
allowing the plate to open onlky when the throttle is depressed. The small 
orifice at the bottom is connected to a hose by a banjo bolt, this hose 
feeds the back of the IP at the diaphram balancing the fuel rail between 
engine vacuum and throttle position."

As for the "bulb" doing the ignition, even though I am no diesel expert, I 
knew that if that was the case, this would be a major consideration as to 
the viability of running a IDI Benz with veggie oil, espeically since veggie 
oil has a higher flash point. But it has NEVER been brought up in the 
voluminous reading I have done on the subject, becasue it simply doesnt work 
that way. Couple that with the fact I have easily started a cold car many 
times without waiting for the glow plugs to cycle on a warmer day, and was 
able to start with no glow plugs whatsoever on a colder day, you can 
appreciate my healthy skeptiscism that a MB IDI engine cant run without them 
as George claims.

>From: RonMyers at wildblue.net
>Reply-To: Antique tractor email discussion group 
><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>Subject: RE: [AT] Canola to diesel
>Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:02:33 -0700 (MST)
>
>Boy am I learning a lot here I was surprised to find that after all these
>years that there are so many different ways to make a diesel fire.
>
>I have been into model airplanes for years and still have a 1938 McCoy
>0.60 engine.  It originally had a champion spark plug and points that ran
>off the front of the crankshaft next to the propeller.  it used a small
>coil and battery to maintain spark. it ran on on gasoline in those early
>days.
>
>It now has a glow plug and runs on Alcohol.  You need to use a battery to
>get the plug hot for starting but the firingg of the engine will keep it
>hot.
>
>A friend had a small diesel model airplane engine but couldn't get it to 
>run.
>
>It had a screw on top of the head to increase the compression for firing.
>We could not get enough speed to start it by just flipping the the prop so
>i put my flywheel off my marine engine on it and we used the rear wheel of
>his car to start it. Put it up against the turning wheel and turn screw
>down until it started.
>
>The real hard part was trying to keep up with the car until it started????
>
>One can learn a lot playing with small engines like these.
>
>Ron
>
>
>
>
> > Larry,
> >
> > I innocently made a statement that applied ONLY to Mercedes engines as
> > used
> > in the 180D, 190D, 190DC (same as the 200D, 200D, 220D, 240D, and 300D.
> > As
> > I stated earlier those engines do indeed have a throttle plate that
> > greatly
> > reduces the amount of air available to be compressed.  When the engines
> > are
> > in that restricted mode they don't have enough compression to ignite the
> > charge unassisted by the heated ball pin, and that's why I stated they
> > aren't true diesels.
> >
> > The Navy manual you cited makes no mention at all of the throttle plate
> > nor
> > the ball pin that is unique to the Mercedes engines as far as I know, 
>nor
> > is
> > there any reason to think the Navy should be interested in their unique
> > design.
> >
> > I'm quite familiar with the Ricardo pre-combustion chamber.  I also know
> > that the stated compression ratio of any normally aspirated engine is
> > dependent upon an unrestricted intake.  That's especially important in 
>an
> > engine with a throttle plate.
> >
> > I guess there are folks here who think ALL non-diesel engines have spark
> > plugs?  Their uncalled for disparaging comments reflect mostly on their
> > miss-understanding of the facts.
> >
> > George Willer
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com [mailto:at-
> >> bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of Larry Mason
> >> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:05 PM
> >> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >> Subject: Re: [AT] Canola to diesel
> >>
> >> I have been following this line of messages with interest. I agree with
> >> you
> >> Tom in that any engine that ignites the fuel by way of compression and
> >> not
> >> by a spark plug is a true diesel engine. Fuel is irrelevant because the
> >> original diesel engine was designed by Rudolph Diesel to run on 
>anything
> >> (perume,vegetable oil etc) There are various designs of diesel engines.
> >> The
> >> most common are the open chamber (what I think George is referring to 
>as
> >> the
> >> true diesel), the precombustion chamber, the turbulence chamber, and 
>the
> >> spherical(hypercycle) chamber. The following info is from the Navy
> >> construction course manual:
> >> The open combustion chamber (fig. 5-2) is the
> >>
> >> simplest form of chamber. It is suitable for only slowspeed,
> >>
> >> four-stroke cycle engines, but is widely used in
> >>
> >> two-stroke cycle diesel engines. In the open chamber,
> >>
> >> the fuel is injected directly into the space on top of the
> >>
> >> cylinder. The combustion space, formed by the top of
> >>
> >> the piston and the cylinder head, usually is shaped to
> >>
> >> provide s swirling action of the air, as the piston comes
> >>
> >> up on the compression stroke. There are no special
> >>
> >> pockets, cells, or passages to aid the mixing of the fuel
> >>
> >> and air. This type of chamber requires a higher injection
> >>
> >> pressure and a greater degree of fuel atomization than is
> >>
> >> required by other combustion chambers to obtain an
> >>
> >> acceptable level of fuel mixing
> >>
> >> The precombustion chamber (fig. 5-3) is an
> >>
> >> auxiliary chamber at the top of the cylinder. It is
> >>
> >> connected to the main combustion chamber by a
> >>
> >> restricted throat or passage. The precombustion
> >>
> >> chamber conditions the fuel for final combustion in the
> >>
> >> cylinder. A hollowed-out portion of the piston top
> >>
> >> causes turbulence in the main combustion chamber, as
> >>
> >> the fuel enters from the precombustion chamber to aid
> >>
> >> in mixing with air.
> >>
> >> The turbulence chamber (fig. 54) is similar in
> >>
> >> appearance to the precombustion chamber, but its
> >>
> >> function is different. There is very little clearance
> >>
> >> between the top of the piston and the head, so a high
> >>
> >> percentage of the air between the piston and cylinder
> >>
> >> head is forced into the turbulence chamber during the
> >>
> >> compression stroke. The chamber is usually spherical,
> >>
> >> and the small opening through which the air must pass
> >>
> >> causes an increase in air velocity, as it enters the
> >>
> >> chamber. This turbulence speed is about 50 times
> >>
> >> crankshaft speed. The fuel injection is timed to occur
> >>
> >> when the turbulence in the chamber is greatest. This
> >>
> >> ensures a thorough mixing of the fuel and air, causing
> >>
> >> the greater part of combustion to take place in the
> >>
> >> turbulence chamber.
> >>
> >> The spherical (hypercycle) combustion chamber
> >>
> >> (fig. 5-5) is designed principally for use in the multifuel
> >>
> >> diesel engine. The chamber consists of a basic open
> >>
> >> type chamber with a spherical shaped relief in the top of
> >>
> >> the piston head. The chamber works in conjunction
> >>
> >> with a strategically positioned injector and an intake
> >>
> >> port that produces a swirling effect, as it enters the
> >>
> >> chamber.
> >>
> >> Me agian.These types are all diesel engines but use different methods 
>to
> >> ensure a good mixture of fuel and air. Hope this helps clarify this
> >> discussion
> >>
> >> Larry Mason
> >>
> >> Hackensack MN
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Tom Yasnowski" <tomyasnowski at hotmail.com>
> >> To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> >> Sent: Monday, February 05,:20 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [AT] Canola to diesel
> >>
> >>
> >> >I guess it all depends on what one thinks a "true diesel" really
> >> is...To
> >> me
> >> >if the fuel, whatever that fule is, can ignite with compression 
>instead
> >> of
> >> >spark than I view it as a compression engine. If its bastardized in
> >> ways
> >> >you and George describe and you no longer considier it a compression
> >> >engine, then I guess thats your right. But I would bet the EPA  and 
>DOT
> >> >would call my MB a "diesel".
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>From: "Ken Knierim" <ken.knierim at gmail.com>
> >> >>Reply-To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> >> >><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> >> >>To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
> >> >><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> >> >>Subject: Re: [AT] Canola to diesel
> >> >>Date: Mon, 5 Feb:59:56 -0700
> >> >>
> >> >>Tom,
> >> >>     The fact that the engine has a throttle plate and the ball pin
> >> >>indicates it has different parts than a true Diesel engine. Take them
> >> >>out to make it a Diesel and see what happens. From the description
> >> >>given, this engine is a lot closer to a "hot-bulb" engine. Might I
> >> >>suggest you do some research on those engines?
> >> >>There are a number of different engines that will burn diesel fuel; I
> >> >>have a TD-14 crawler that starts on gas and switches to diesel. It's 
>a
> >> >>combination of different types of engines; it has a direct injection
> >> >>pump on one side and a carb and spark plugs on the other.
> >> >>There are also the "kerosene" types that preheat the fuel in the
> >> >>manifold; they can burn diesel as well but that does NOT make them a
> >> >>Diesel engine. There is also a Hesselman that used direct injection
> >> >>that fit your classification but had a very low compression ratio
> >> >>(Allis Chalmers and Case tried them). It wasn't a Diesel either.
> >> >>Honest, there IS a difference. The fact that you've been able to 
>start
> >> >>it without the factory-installed glow plugs doesn't mean they're not
> >> >>necessary; the factory engineers had to justify them to the
> >> >>beancounters before they put them in, so they're probably there for a
> >> >>reason, just like the ball pins. You might not know the reason, but
> >> >>I'd venture a guess the factory engineers knew why. A true 
>compression
> >> >>engine would not require the "hot bulb' of the heated ball pin.
> >> >>
> >> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_bulb_engine
> >> >>is a good link and they have a comparison with a Diesel engine.
> >> >>
> >> >>Hope this helps.
> >> >>
> >> >>Ken in AZ
> >> >>
> >> >>On 2/5/07, Tom Yasnowski <tomyasnowski at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>Of course diesel engines have changed and improved over the years.
> >> But
> >> >>>the
> >> >>>basic premise is still the same--ignition thru compression of fuel 
>as
> >> >>>opposed to a spark.  George says with the MB glow plugs are 
>necessary
> >> for
> >> >>>ignition.  Wonder how I started mine cold when my glowplugs were not
> >> >>>working
> >> >>>last fall? The heated ball pin aids in combustion but is not
> >> required.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
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> >> >
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