[AT] Add-on hydraulics and power steering?
Cecil Bearden
crbearden at copper.net
Sun Apr 29 04:09:46 PDT 2007
My Farmhand only raises to about 16 ft. We were going to put the hay
forks under the truss and raise them to 15 ft. I can put a loose chain
around f the king post of the truss and tie it to the rack on the loader
and we can still maneuver the truss safely.
Cecil in OKla
Dudley Rupert wrote:
> Cecil,
>
> If you happen to have a digital picture of your' Farmhand loader I'd like to
> see it. I take it that it gets up to 20 feet ... that's high altitude! For
> the application you describe (i.e., with the tractor mainly just sitting
> with the hydraulic pump doing all the work) I would want a high capacity
> pump as well ... a guy doesn't have all day to wait for the loader to get up
> and down.
>
> Thanks -
> Dudley
> Snohomish, Washington
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com]On Behalf Of Cecil Bearden
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 3:58 AM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] Add-on hydraulics and power steering?
>
> Dudley:
> Good point.
> When I size a pump for a utility tractor, I use a larger pump so that I
> get a good speed on the loader at just above idle. Also when using the
> bucket or loader, we don't have to have full power at the same time.
> This normally results in welding on the loader frame. We use our
> loaders so much for positioning machinery and working on buildings and
> equipment and loading hay. I think the last time we had a load of dirt
> or gravel in the bucket was about 2 months ago.
>
> I am putting up a building for a neighbor 65 x 150 and he has a skid
> loader with a boom that raises 20 feet. When we get to setting our
> trusses up. I am going to use the John Deere 4010 with the Farmhand
> loader. I don't trust a skid loader at that height.. we are building
> our trusses..
>
> Dudley Rupert wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> You asked in your' email of last Saturday, "Can a pump be too big to run
>> such a system?" The short answer is yes but I thought it would be
>> interesting to write down some of the trade offs that are made when
>>
> deciding
>
>> pump size.
>>
>> Let's take an example:
>> Let's say we had a Ford 8N engine on a stand and that it developed 25 HP
>>
> at
>
>> 2,000 RPM.
>> Let's say further that we wanted to use all the output of this engine to
>> drive a single hydraulic pump that would provide 1,500 PSI pressure when
>> under full load.
>> Question: How big of a pump could we use without stalling the engine?
>>
>> Answer: The formula for determining the HP required to drive a hydraulic
>> pump is:
>> HP = GPM * PSI / 1714 or
>> GPM = 1714 * HP / PSI so in this case
>> GPM = 1714 * 25 / 1500 or
>> ~ 28 GPM
>>
>> Now let's take another example:
>> Let's say we had a Ford 8N tractor with a loader and we want to determine
>> how big of a pump to buy.
>> We know we don't want to use a 28 GPM pump as that would leave no engine
>> power to drive the tractor when operating the loader under full load.
>> So, let's say we are willing to give up 25 percent of the engine power to
>> drive the pump which leaves ~ 19 HP to drive the tractor.
>>
>> So, GPM = 1714 * (0.25 * 25) / 1500 = ~ 7 GPM
>>
>> Interestingly I have three loaders that I think are all from the fifties:
>>
> a
>
>> Ford, a Bush Hog and a Davis. Two have Vickers pumps and one has a Borg.
>> The capacities of these old pumps range from 5 to 8 GPM at nominal tractor
>> speeds ... hum; maybe my 25 percent assumption was not too far off.
>>
>> On a related note I finished installing the Davis loader on a Ferguson 35
>> last week. The Vickers pump on the Davis was a 5 GPM pump. I think the
>> Ferggy 35 has around 33 HP. I decided I wanted a bigger pump and that the
>> 35 has sufficient power so I installed an Eaton pump with a capacity of
>>
> ~11
>
>> GPM (I have the system pressure relief valve set at 1500 PSI).
>>
>> So, this 11 GPM pump, when under load, would require
>> HP = 11 * 1500 / 1714 or
>> ~9 HP which leaves ~24 horses for the tractor.
>>
>> So far I am pleased with this configuration (as in I like the up & down
>>
> and
>
>> bucket dump speed) although I haven't yet really operated the loader in a
>> pile of heavy debris where tractor power - or lack of - will come into
>>
> play.
>
>> I think these examples illustrate that within some broad parameters
>> determining pump size can be as much a matter of personal liking as it is
>>
> an
>
>> exact science.
>>
>> I hope this helped ... some at least.
>>
>> Dudley
>> Snohomish, Washington
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com]On Behalf Of Dudley Rupert
>> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 10:09 AM
>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>> Subject: Re: [AT] Add-on hydraulics and power steering?
>>
>> John,
>>
>> The back fifteen or twenty pages of the 2004 Hydraulic Parts Components
>> catalogue from Force America contains a good tutorial on hydraulics.
>>
> Their
>
>> website is www.forceamerica.com and their number is 888-99FORCE. I don't
>> have their latest catalogue but I would guess that it would also include
>> this tutorial information.
>>
>> A hydraulic pump can be used for both power steering and another
>>
> application
>
>> like say a loader. However, to maintain the performance of the power
>> steering system while both turning and using the loader requires a Flow
>> Divider (or something that works like it).
>>
>> A Flow Divider is like a Y valve with one input (which is connected to the
>> pump output) and two outputs. One output is connected to the power
>>
> steering
>
>> and the other to the loader. The function of the Flow Divider is to
>>
> ensure
>
>> that a minimum flow of hydraulic fluid is always diverted to one of its'
>> output ports. Let's say power steering needs a minimum of 3 GPM to
>>
> function
>
>> properly (I have no idea if this is anywhere near correct). Then,
>> installing a Flow Divider with a 3 GPM rating on one of its' output ports
>> for the power steering could be used. The loader, which is connected to
>>
> the
>
>> other Flow Divider output port, will then only get what the pump puts out
>>
> in
>
>> excess of 3 GPM.
>>
>> FWIW - I have seen several tractors with power steering that used a Flow
>> Divider but not also with a loader - usually just a function that required
>>
> a
>
>> single actuator like an add-on 3-pt hitch. For a loader application I
>>
> think
>
>> I would want dedicated pumps for both the loader and power steering, as I
>> wouldn't want the loader performance to suffer any while turning.
>>
>> Dudley
>> Snohomish, Washington
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com]On Behalf Of Larry D Goss
>> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:18 AM
>> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>> Subject: Re: [AT] Add-on hydraulics and power steering?
>>
>> Are you sure the pump is turning the right way? Some pumps have the
>> pressure relief valve built into them and won't run backwards.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Wilkens" <jwilkens at eoni.com>
>> To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 11:15 PM
>> Subject: [AT] Add-on hydraulics and power steering?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Anyone know of a good book on very basic practical application of
>>> hydraulics and old tractors? One specific is...can you use a front
>>> or rear mount hydraulic pump that is being used to run a loader (etc)
>>> to run an add-on power steering unit also? What capacity pump would
>>> be required? What kind of plumbing and fixtures would be
>>> needed? Also, can a pump be too big to run such a system. I
>>> tried to run a wood splitter off of a large BeeGee pump hooked up to
>>> the belt pulley shaft on an AC WC tractor (came off of a Cat) but
>>> about all it did was heat up the oil and stall the tractor. One guy
>>> told me the pump was "just too big." ???
>>>
>>> In the wide-open spaces of NE Oregon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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