[AJD] JD Manual scans on CD

Sun Mar 6 08:22:30 PST 2005

Lou,
	We have done business.  You are okay in my book.  I do not want to 
upset you, but probably will.  I agree that stealing and copying are 
wrong if the intent is to make money.  Two questions.  Why do you have 4 
DB1293 CD's and why can't you sell them at what the market provides as a 
price?

Ron

Louis wrote:
> Dean,
> 
> I am with you!!  If these other guys had produced something at their
> cost and intellect, then had someone come along and make a cheap
> knock-off, they would change their tune real fast.
> 
> Bottom line: Wrong is wrong.  These people making copies and selling
> them are stealing.  It is not the same as lending a your shop manual to
> a buddy.  Your buddy is hopefully going to give you back your manual.
> Plus, this is most likely done without the exchange of money.  Where
> this guy is taking something that is copyrighted and protected and then
> copying it.  He has no financial risk involved, other than the cost of a
> CD.  So go ahead and try to justify how this is right.  Remember when
> you have to justify something, it usually isn't right!
> 
> Like Dean, said, it makes our legitimate copies worthless.  Then people
> question them when we do want to sell them.  I have 4 original copies of
> DB1293, I can't sell them right know.  I won't get what they are worth,
> because this other guy is selling pirated copies, below the original
> selling price.  
> 
> Chris, I contacted Deere a few weeks ago and reported these copies.  You
> can't report it directly to ebay if it isn't your trademark, copyright,
> etc...  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> [mailto:antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf
> Of Dean VP
> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 8:02 PM
> To: 'Antique John Deere mailing list'
> Subject: RE: [AJD] JD Manual scans on CD
> 
> 
> Ron:
> 
> It is my understanding that JD hired a consultant who recommended the
> discontinuance of the Vintage CD's. I can almost see the paragraph that
> was written.
> 
> "DB 1293 JD has $1400 (at recommended new prices) worth of Parts
> Catalogs on it and you are selling it for $75.00. If you discontinue the
> CD's, look at how much more money you can make selling CD's per Parts
> Catalog at a minimum of $30 each with some higher priced. Paper manuals
> can be priced even higher."
> 
> I question whether any consideration was given to whether we would be
> willing to pay it or could afford to. Or how much extra labor was
> required to make custom CD's "to order" rather than sell a standard
> product that could be made in volume. Almost reminds me of a "make work"
> situation. Then I suppose the legal staff was increased to police the
> homemade copies that became prevalent due to JD's extraordinarily high
> prices. Seems like a circular effort to me. 
> 
> I too am able to distinguish the difference between making a copy for a
> friend to use at no cost vs making copies for commercial sale. Maybe
> that is called "situational ethics". Don't know for sure. 
> 
> But, having spent a career in a business where we had to protect our
> intellection property, I sure can understand the manufacturer's point of
> view. On a more personal basis in this situation, I have spent the $75
> each to get originals when they were still for sale. It bothers me a bit
> to see these unauthorized copies sold for much less than the originals
> w/o compensation to the originator and it also degrades the value of my
> original investment. Bottom line is I fall on the side of:
> 
> "It just isn't right"
> 
> Dean A. Van Peursem
> Snohomish, WA 98290
> 
> I'm a walking storeroom of facts..... I've just lost the key to the
> storeroom door 
> 
> 
> www.deerelegacy.com
> 
> http://members.cox.net/classicweb/email.htm
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> [mailto:antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf
> Of Ronald L. Cook
> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 3:43 PM
> To: Antique John Deere mailing list
> Subject: Re: [AJD] JD Manual scans on CD
> 
> Dean,
> 	If you took a look at my bank account you would certainly say,
> "Ron 
> just isn't good at business".  However, if I had a product that I could 
> promote and supply that is in demand, I might raise the price a little. 
>   Just a little.  Not enough to upset the newcomers or the old 
> customers.  I'll be darned if I would just up and quit the product.  The
> 
> market has shown the demand for the Vintage CD's.  They always go for 
> more than Deere sold them for.  Even the copies.  Screwy, isn't it?
> 	I guess if I had my "druthers", I would like the original hard
> copy of 
> a manual and a copy on the computer.  There is something I just like 
> about flipping back and forth between pages.  Seems easier to find 
> things.  Now, printing a copy to take in the shop and not worry about 
> the greasy fingerprints, is very handy.  I do that.  I don't have adobe 
> ver 7, but I do use ver 6.  It is pretty good.
> 
> Ron Cook
> Salix, IA
> 
> 
> Dean VP wrote:
> 
> 
>>Ron:
>>
>>JD's pricing sure has created the opportunity. Discontinuing selling 
>>the Vintage CD's sure did.
>>
>>I tended to prefer the paper manuals until I became familiar with 
>>using
> 
> the
> 
>>CD's. Now I prefer the CD's as I find the section I want, print it out
> 
> 
>>and take it to the shop and I don't care if I get the pages all 
>>greasy.  Adobe Reader ver 6 and 7 sure have improved the access to the
> 
> 
>>data on these
> 
> CD's.
> 
>>
>>Dean A. Van Peursem
>>Snohomish, WA 98290
>>
>>I'm a walking storeroom of facts..... I've just lost the key to the 
>>storeroom door
>>
>>
>>www.deerelegacy.com
>>
>>http://members.cox.net/classicweb/email.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>[mailto:antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf
> 
> 
>>Of Ronald L. Cook
>>Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 10:34 AM
>>To: Antique John Deere mailing list
>>Subject: Re: [AJD] JD Manual scans on CD
>>
>>I think Deere's pricing has caused it.  Somehow it seems to always end
>>up that the big buck people get the best no matter what the hobby is 
>>because they can afford it.  Deere no longer caters to the masses.
> 
> They 
> 
>>want the doctors, lawyers, and indian chiefs with expo class stuff.
> 
> My 
> 
>>personal tastes are against that "expo" class.  I just can't see a
> 
> "wet 
> 
>>look, chrome stacked, armor-all tires" tractor making sense and really
> 
> 
>>do not like them.  I have watched people trying to start their
> 
> beautiful 
> 
>>open fan-shafted Model A and it was apparent they had never been 
>>involved with any kind of engine, let alone a tractor.  They just paid
> 
> 
>>for a trophey winning restoration.  Made me bust out laughing.  I am
> 
> not 
> 
>>trying to insult anyone here.  Just stating my opinion.  However, I am
> 
> 
>>probably a minority.  The "working class" tractors probably do not
> 
> cost 
> 
>>as much to end up with.  It is just economics. To me, buying a CD copy
> 
> 
>>for cheap is not much different than borrowing someone's manual to use
> 
> 
>>and probably better than IT manuals.  I do prefer Deere's paper
> 
> manuals 
> 
>>and original if I can get them but really see nothing wrong with 
>>offering a substitute.  It will not be as good a quality and will seek
> 
> 
>>its own level and trying to work from some thing stored on a computer 
>>will for sure drive you nuts.
>>
>>Ron Cook
>>Salix, IA
>>
>>Dean VP wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Well, I wondered how long it was going to take before someone tried 
>>>this. Seller on eBay has scanned JD's Paper manuals and is now selling
> 
> 
>>>them on eBay. Seller has 4 different scanned CD's on now.
>>>
>>>Look at eBay auction:  3879451357
>>>
>>>Then click on "All Items for sale by this seller"
>>>
>>>I have mixed emotions about this. At one time I was told that JD's 
>>>paper manuals are not copyrighted. If that is true then I see no 
>>>reason why this is illegal unless JD already has the same manual on CD
> 
> 
>>>this is
>>
>>copyrighted.
>>
>>
>>>But..... JD still sells these CD versions of the paper manuals on a 
>>>custom basis.  I've not purchased one of the current custom CD's from 
>>>JD so I
>>
>>don't
>>
>>
>>>know if their custom CD's are copyrighted or not.
>>>
>>>I have mixed emotions about this practice. Something tells me it is 
>>>unethical and maybe even illegal. But JD sure has created a price 
>>>umbrella to entice this underground cottage industry.
>>>
>>>What do you guys think?
>>>
>>>Dean A. Van Peursem
>>>Snohomish, WA 98290
>>>
>>>I'm a walking storeroom of facts..... I've just lost the key to the 
>>>storeroom door
>>>
>>>
>>>www.deerelegacy.com
>>>
>>>http://members.cox.net/classicweb/email.htm
>>
>>
>>
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