[AT] Oil Filter question

Sat Jul 9 17:15:03 PDT 2005

Agreed, but experience on this particular project indicates that there may
be sufficient flow to deliver at least some oil even with the filter wide
open.  In this case the tractor was running without the little vertical
pipe; the filter wasn't even getting wet, and there was no pressure
registered at all on the gauge.  But I did have the valve cover off at that
time, adjusting the valve clearance.  There was a nice flow of oil up that
high on the engine.  And since it did have at least several hours of
operation, the mains were obviously getting lubrication.  I had forgotten,
or maybe never noticed, the cross-block line Cecil mentions, I don't know if
it that was running or not.

I'm still betting that with the pressure that remained with the new style
filter installed, the engine was getting plenty of lubrication (albeit less
than factory specified), especially considering the evidence that it may
have been getting sufficient lubrication even with no filter resistance at
all. 

B²

Bill Brueck (brick)
Chatfield, MN, USA

Confusion is a higher state of knowledge than ignorance.

-----Original Message-----
From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
[mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of charlie hill
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 1:09 PM
To: Antique tractor email discussion group
Subject: Re: [AT] Oil Filter question

Bill,  I'm not sure about the exact oil system design on the Allis engines. 
I'll have to pull the books out and look.   However, I believe that if the 
filter does not restrict the oil flow the oil will take the path of least
resistance, through the oil filter housing and back to the sump and will not
be forced to the critical bearing surfaces.

Here is a simple example:  Take your garden hose.  Put a Y on the end of it.

Attach a spray nozzle to one end of the Y.    Stuff a rag in the other end 
of the Y.  Turn on the water and open the valves so the water flows to both 
sides of the Y.   Hold the rag in really tight.  The water will now spray at

reasonbly high pressure through the spray nozzle.  Now remove the rag or
hold it loosely on the Y and see what happens to the water going through the
spray nozzle.
Isn 't that exactly what is happening when you put the wrong filter or
improperly install the  filter on the Allis engine?

Charlie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Brueck" <b2 at chooka.net>
To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'" 
<at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 1:02 PM
Subject: RE: [AT] Oil Filter question

> Would it not be correct to say that the Allis system is a bypass filter
> design, rather than a full flow filter design?
>
> On an Allis the filter is just one of the various destinations for the oil
> pump to feed, so oil is delivered throughout regardless of whether a 
> filter
> is even in place or not.  Having some resistance at the filter may be
> helpful in forcing more oil to the other destinations, however.
>
> Thus the oil gauge installed at the filter on a bypass system tells you
> nothing about the condition of your engine, other than perhaps the oil 
> pump
> itself.  As Ron suggests, higher oil pressure readings would tell you it's
> time to change the filter.
>
> That being said, the redesigned filter that started all this may indeed be
> just fine for the engine, it's just disturbing to the operator.  We're
> accustomed to thinking about lower oil pressure as signaling engine wear.
>
> I'm inclined to think the engineers were right that the replacement design
> was fine.  But they didn't check with their marketing department: it 
> wasn't
> a marketable solution.
>
> B²
>
> Bill Brueck (brick)
> Chatfield, MN, USA
>
> Confusion is a higher state of knowledge than ignorance.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of Ronald L. Cook
> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 10:50 AM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: [AT] Oil Filter question
>
> Charlie,
>         I have been down this same road.  No oil pressure showing with the
> "non-rag" filter.  I was using an AGCO, no less.  I found an old Fram 
> around
> here that I had for a Wisconsin and put that on.  Oil pressure restored.
> Then I went to my filter supplier and purchased his remaining Wix rag
> filter.  Only one was left there.  Since then, 3 years ago, I understand 
> the
> filter has undergone a redesign.  I do suspect, as Bill does, that the
> engine is getting oiled fine.  I think the gauge only measures the 
> pressure
> in the filter, as the dirtier the filter gets, the higher the pressure
> reading.  Dumb design anyway you look at it, but it has worked for longer
> than my 61 years!
>         I no longer have the Allis B, but I do have a filter around here
> yet.  If you were here, I would hand it to you.  Providing I could find 
> it.
>
> Ron Cook
> Salix, IA
>>I did some searching  online and found several references to the
>>problem with the new design WIX/NAPA filters.  I called the dealer I
>>bought mine from and he swore there was no problem with them but he
>>offered to let me return it (after it had been installed and run) and I
> didn't ask him.
>>
>>Check out this web page
>>http://www.tonystractors.com/images/oilfilterslg.JPG
>>
>>It shows the correct AGCO filter which is like all the aftermarket
>>filters from CarQuest, Fram, etc. that I've been buying for 40 years.
>>Beside it is the new WIX/NAPA filter that  won't work.
>>
>>Charlie
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Brueck" <b2 at chooka.net>
>>To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'"
>><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 9:56 AM
>>Subject: RE: [AT] Oil Filter question
>>
>>
>>>I have a friend with an Allis WC who inadvertently threw away the
>>>little center pipe once when changing oil filters.  Of course the
>>>tractor did not show oil pressure after that.  Much to my dismay, he
>>>used the tractor (lightly, just a retired guy with a few acres, I
>>>don't think he plowed with it or anything) for a year that way!  I
>>>finally convinced him to bring it over so I could check it for him, I
>>>found the pipe missing and made one for him out of a brake line. 
>>>Pressure
> restored.
>>>
>>>So point being I expect the engine was getting oil all along anyway.
>>>
>>>Will be interested in other posting about this, I've wondered what was
>>>happening with Jerry's WC that year.
>>>
>>>B²
>>>
>>>Bill Brueck (brick)
>>>Chatfield, MN, USA
>>>
>>>Confusion is a higher state of knowledge than ignorance.
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>>[mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of charlie
>>>hill
>>>Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 8:13 AM
>>>To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>Subject: [AT] Oil Filter question
>>>
>>>Older Allis Chalmers, Case and maybe some other tractors use a rag
>>>filled oil filter that is presure fed into the filter media via a small
> tube that
>>>extends up into the filter.   I just bought  2 filters yesterday that are
>>>WIX brand (good filters) but they are no longer rag filled.
>>>Now they have a rubber bladder inside that the oil tube goes up into.
>>>Around the bladder their is an air space and then some filter media
>>>around the perimeter of the filter canister.
>>>
>>>It looks like a good design but unfortunately my D-14 won't build
>>>proper oil
>>>
>>>presure with this filter.   AC used the rag filter to "regulate" oil
> presure
>>>
>>>by restricting the flow through the filter media.
>>>I assume that this new filter design is made to do the same thing but it
>>>doesn't seem to work.   With the old rag filter my oil presure guage 
>>>moves
>>>the needle to about the middle of the guage.  With the new filter it
>>>barely moves off the low presure peg.
>>>
>>>I checked the WIX web site and they show this filter #51101 as the
>>>proper filter for my tractor however they show it as obsolete and say
>>>it is replaced by #57011 ( I think that is the number).  Does anyone
>>>one have experience with this new design or information about the
>>>filter change, etc.?
>>>
>>>Everyone around here is out of stock on these filters.  Both the local
>>>NAPA stores show it as back ordered from their distribution center.  I
>>>had to drive 35 miles one way to get this filter and I bought 2 at
>>>$12.99 each. I need to run the tractor.  I guess I'll just  put the old
> one back on.
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>
>>>Charlie
>
>
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