[AJD] washing soda

Fri Dec 23 14:54:16 PST 2005

Harumfph even.....

as a Theologian and musician I think you're both geeks! But I sure do
appreciate smart geeks!

Steve, thanks for the great explaination. I find that I learn better as well
when things are clearly explained. Mine is not a scientific mind so I need
principles and processes explained in order for me to grasp them. As a
pastor I find that putting "GOD" into simple language makes Him much more
understanding.

Hey, everybody..... Merry Christmas to you all. May Gods richest blessing,
Jesus, the Christ child fill your homes and hearts with peace and joy.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
[mailto:antique-johndeere-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com]On Behalf Of
Duane Larson
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 2:04 PM
To: Antique John Deere mailing list
Subject: Re: [AJD] washing soda

Steve,
Gosh, speaking as a physicist and appreciating your nice explanation I guess
chemists maybe are ok...
Merry Christmas, and Best Regards,
Duane

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Treimer" <steelerhawk at yahoo.com>
To: "Antique John Deere mailing list"
<antique-johndeere at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [AJD] washing soda

> David,
>  You were right on track too, just thought some might be interested in the
> why not just the what.  Always helps me remember that way.  I thought some
> more last night about it.  Wish I had the time to pursue the research, but
> Duane can understand that too, right!
>  The cathode should be connected to the part needing to be derusted.  The
> cathode is where the hydrogen is made when water is split into hydrogen
> and oxygen.  Hydrogen actually serves two purposes here.  The primary and
> most important purpose is to dislodge the rust and scale.  But also
> there's another neat property of hydrogen that helps us too.  Something
> that is bathed in hydrogen gas is in a "reducing" atmosphere.  Rust is
> iron oxide, the oxygen that got to the iron part "oxidized" it.  That
> opposite of oxidation is reduction, so by bathing the part in bubbles of
> hydrogen, the hydrogen passivates the part, at least temporarily.  It's
> too bad that we don't recovert that iron oxide back to iron, but this
> would be a truly monumental feat.  But once the scale is off, the bare
> metal comes out glistening clean because the hydrogen bubbles are
> preserving the bare iron.  The high pH of the bath prevents oxygen from
> forming at the anode which in turn allows hydrogen to be produce
> d at the
> cathode instead.  This is where the term "efficiency" kind of applies.
> Actually, you're just changing the ingredients of this reaction to get the
> product that you want - that is hydrogen bubbles at the cathode and no
> bubbles at the anode.  If you were in an acidic bath, oxygen would come of
> your anode quite readily when voltage was applied and long before any
> hydrogen was ever produced at the cathode and all you'd do is
> ruin/dissolve/oxidize the anode and the acid would be able to oxidize your
> iron part even though it was connected to the cathode.
>  Sorry everyone is that is just TMI, just kind of fun revisiting the stuff
> I let grow dusty in the closet I sometimes call a brain.
>  Have great holidays!
>  steve
>
> David Bruce <davidbruce at yadtel.net> wrote:
>  Steve,
> You did a much better job than I explaining things. Back in the old
> days lye was always Potassium Hydroxide but now it seems the term is
> used for KOH and NaOH both. (potassium hydroxide and sodium hydroxide).
> My thoughts is soda ash (washing soda) would provide a high enough pH
> but maybe sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) wouldn't when looking at
> electrolysis.
>
> David
> NW NC
>
> Steve Treimer wrote:
>
>>For electrolysis, the primary thing you need is an electrolyte to allow
>>the charge to pass through the solution to work on the metal. This could
>>be as simple as table salt depending on what your goal was.
>> For derusting electrolysis, baking soda would work just fine as an
>> electrolyte, except the pH of the solution it produces when dissolved is
>> fairly low. Someone was correct when they said the carbonate (not the
>> bicarbonate in baking soda) is more alkaline/basic, i.e., it generates a
>> bath that has a higher pH. Sodium Hydroxide (Lye) would produce an even
>> more alkaline bath (higher pH). The only precaution you must use is that
>> sodium hydroxide is aggressive enough to burn if you don't treat it with
>> respect. It is referred to as a Strong Base in chemistry.
>>
>> Why do you want a high pH solution from a strong base to do this job?
>> Efficiency is the correct answer, but I'll explain. Oxygen is produced at
>> the anode. Hydrogen at the cathode. If you understand how these are
>> produced from the splitting of water, you see that how easily it is made
>> depends on how acidic the bath is (how much H+ ion is in there for those
>> that care). You don't want oxygen to be made easily when doing this
>> procedure. It reduces your electrolysis efficiency. So the higher the pH
>> the better. If I were doing it, I too would use regular old Lye and just
>> use care with it and make sure my kids knew it was off limits.
>>
>> Hope it helps.
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>DAVID BRUCE wrote:
>> Not really being familiar with a 'Hot Tank' solution I risk going out on
>> a
>>limb but ...
>>Probably the hot tank solution is basically lye (potassium hydroxide or
>>sodium hydroxide) in solution. If that is true, the hydroxide solutions
>>are "stronger" than Washing Soda (sodium carbonate or soda ash) but other
>>than taking the appropriate safety precautions I would think it will work
>>as well for the electrolytic rust removal. Now using washing soda in a
>>'Hot Tank' might not work as well. Just my opinion with a significant
>>lack of information - ymmv - and I'm sure there are others here that have
>>more practical experience than I do.
>>
>>David
>>NW NC
>>
>>
>>
>>>Possibly a dumb question,
>>>
>>>So is Soda Washing similar to a 'Hot Tank'
>>>solution? Or will it remove rust as well? This
>>>sounds like something I need to try...
>>>
>>>Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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