Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $

charlie hill chill8 at cox.net
Fri Aug 12 05:36:53 PDT 2005 

Ok Tom,

I would think running straight stuff would  make for a messy engine but what 
do I know?  I'm sure you have researched it.

Charlie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Yasnowski" <tomyasnowski at hotmail.com>
To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $


> Charlie,
>
> Thanks--I have been to those sites.  They dont talk much about cleaning 
> SVO, but foucus more on biodiesel production, which I dont want to do.  I 
> am thinking about running warmed waste oil thru a filter press after 
> gravity filtration.  I am also considering giving it the lye treatment to 
> remove FFA's
> but not sure if that will be of any benefit when running SVO.
>
> Tom
>
>>From: "charlie hill" <chill8 at cox.net>
>>Reply-To: Antique tractor email discussion group 
>><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" 
>><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>Subject: Re: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $
>>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:39:46 -0400
>>
>>Tom the links I just posted (previous message) will tell you how to do it.
>>
>>Charlie
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Yasnowski" 
>><tomyasnowski at hotmail.com>
>>To: <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 7:10 AM
>>Subject: Re: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $
>>
>>
>>>When my old 1992 Saturn with 170K miles on it finally bites the dust, (It 
>>>still gets 35 MPG!) I am
>>>going to get a diesel pickup.  Considering running straight waste 
>>>vegetable oil thru it.  Till then
>>>I am researching on way to get the oil extra clean; more than just using 
>>>filtration. I got a couple sources for the oil, and got some ideas on how 
>>>to get it really clean.
>>>Tom
>>>
>>>>From: John Wilkens <jwilkens at eoni.com>
>>>>Reply-To: Antique tractor email discussion group 
>>>><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>>To: Antique tractor email discussion group 
>>>><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $
>>>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:03:17 -0700
>>>>
>>>>The neighbor across the road is making his own biodiesel by processing 
>>>>waste restaurant cooking oil from town to power his old Mercedes (?) car 
>>>>and pickup.  Supposedly they run fine.  I've seen his tanks but I don't 
>>>>know any of the process details.  But.....if everyone in the valley 
>>>>starts doing this they will run out of waste oil in a hurry!   John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>At 08:13 AM 08/11/2005, you wrote:
>>>>>I agree with Cecil in part; I do think Biodiesel will be the way out 
>>>>>once they figure out
>>>>>how to keep it from clouding at lower temps.  The cost of Biodiesel 
>>>>>today is near what regular diesel is, and the technology is improving 
>>>>>all the time. Pitt univerity is patenting a way to make it that cut the 
>>>>>cost considerably and reduces the hazardous waste:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/business/s_342262.html
>>>>>
>>>>>If this fuel takes off, look for canola to be the crop of choice as it 
>>>>>yields much more oil that soybeans: "It contains about 40% oil and 23% 
>>>>>protein compared to 20 and 40%, respectively, for soybean".
>>>>>
>>>>>All in all, I have faith in the enterprising spirit to come up with a 
>>>>>solution.
>>>>>
>>>>>Tom
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: "Steve W." <falcon at telenet.net>
>>>>>>Reply-To: Antique tractor email discussion group 
>>>>>><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>>>>To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" 
>>>>>><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>>>>Subject: Re: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $
>>>>>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:43:37 -0400
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Believe what you want, I know folks who have run alcohol in there
>>>>>>engines and got half the mileage in the vehicle. I have run it in race
>>>>>>engines and know how much power I lost in them over gasoline as well.
>>>>>>  In a vehicle you need to dump 40% more alcohol through the injectors 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>achieve a mix that will burn well enough to power a vehicle. Then take
>>>>>>into account that alcohol in an engine only produces 64% of the HP 
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>gasoline does and you get to see the reality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Production costs for alcohol DO get government help right now as do 
>>>>>>any
>>>>>>other "alternative fuels" You are also close to a production point and
>>>>>>the lack of transportation costs also keeps the price artificially 
>>>>>>low.
>>>>>>As does a lack of demand for alcohol as a fuel. The last 55 gallon 
>>>>>>drum
>>>>>>I bought cost me 213.97 + shipping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.lubedev.com/smartgas/alcohol.htm
>>>>>>http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=43492
>>>>>>http://www.pennsylvaniagasprices.com/Forum_MSG.aspx?master=1&category=1056&topic=130249&page_no=1
>>>>>>http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Steve W.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Jim and Lyn Evans" <jevans at evanstoys.com>
>>>>>>To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'"
>>>>>><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 7:13 AM
>>>>>>Subject: RE: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > I think real mileage loss is around 25%.  Here are production E85 >
>>>>>>fuel
>>>>>> > economy ratings:
>>>>>> > http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/byfuel/FFV2000.shtml
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I don't buy the argument that it takes more energy to produce
>>>>>>alcohol
>>>>>>than
>>>>>> > it returns.  That is propaganda from the oil companies.  The only
>>>>>>way
>>>>>>you
>>>>>> > come up with that much energy is if you include the solar energy
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>it
>>>>>> > took to grow the corn.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > You can make the same argument with any energy source - gasoline,
>>>>>>diesel,
>>>>>> > electricity, hydrogen, etc.  In all cases, it takes "more energy" 
>>>>>> > to
>>>>>>produce
>>>>>> > it than it returns.  There are always inefficiencies in the
>>>>>>production,
>>>>>> > making the return less than 100%.  If there wasn't, then it would 
>>>>>> > be a
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > perpetual motion machine.  The secret is finding a cheap, renewable
>>>>>>fuel
>>>>>> > source, and transforming it into a product that can be transported 
>>>>>> >  >
>>>>>>and
>>>>>> > easily used by consumers.  If you can use natural gas, coal, or 
>>>>>> > wood
>>>>>>(which
>>>>>> > isn't handy to use directly in a car) and a bushel of corn and
>>>>>>create
>>>>>>a
>>>>>> > product that can be easily handled and burned in a car, then you
>>>>>>have
>>>>>> > something.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The alcohol plants here are making it for about $1.29/gallon.  That
>>>>>>includes
>>>>>> > the cost of the corn (which is fairly high here because of demand),
>>>>>>and the
>>>>>> > price of the natural gas (expensive) they use to make the product.
>>>>>>There
>>>>>> > are no government subsidies in that cost.  If it took so much 
>>>>>> > energy
>>>>>>to make
>>>>>> > it, wouldn't it cost more?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Jim
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> > From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
>>>>>> > [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of Steve W.
>>>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 10:30 PM
>>>>>> > To: Antique tractor email discussion group
>>>>>> > Subject: Re: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Real simple. Those third world countries have VERY CHEAP labor. 
>>>>>> > Most
>>>>>>of
>>>>>> > the fuel they produce is made in small quantities by locals and 
>>>>>> > then
>>>>>> > sold locally. In order to produce enough to fuel the current
>>>>>>American
>>>>>> > "fleet" you would need to produce more alcohol than we have the
>>>>>> > materials for production. Also I don't know how you figure that
>>>>>>ethanol
>>>>>> > is so cheap. It isn't. Also it is a REAL mileage killer when run
>>>>>> > straight in an engine. You lose half your mileage running it. If 
>>>>>> > you
>>>>>>add
>>>>>> > in ALL the costs of production for both Alcohol and for Bio-diesel 
>>>>>> >  >
>>>>>>you
>>>>>> > will also find out that it takes MORE energy to produce it than it
>>>>>> > returns, they are both net energy losers.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>                    In the wide-open spaces of NE Oregon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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