Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $

[Steve W.]

Believe what you want, I know folks who have run alcohol in there
engines and got half the mileage in the vehicle. I have run it in race
engines and know how much power I lost in them over gasoline as well.
 In a vehicle you need to dump 40% more alcohol through the injectors to
achieve a mix that will burn well enough to power a vehicle. Then take
into account that alcohol in an engine only produces 64% of the HP that
gasoline does and you get to see the reality.

Production costs for alcohol DO get government help right now as do any
other "alternative fuels" You are also close to a production point and
the lack of transportation costs also keeps the price artificially low.
As does a lack of demand for alcohol as a fuel. The last 55 gallon drum
I bought cost me 213.97 + shipping.


http://www.lubedev.com/smartgas/alcohol.htm
http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=43492
http://www.pennsylvaniagasprices.com/Forum_MSG.aspx?master=1&category=1056&topic=130249&page_no=1
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html

Steve W.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim and Lyn Evans" <jevans at evanstoys.com>
To: "'Antique tractor email discussion group'"
<at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 7:13 AM
Subject: RE: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $


> I think real mileage loss is around 25%.  Here are production E85 fuel
> economy ratings:
> http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/byfuel/FFV2000.shtml
>
> I don't buy the argument that it takes more energy to produce alcohol
than
> it returns.  That is propaganda from the oil companies.  The only way
you
> come up with that much energy is if you include the solar energy that
it
> took to grow the corn.
>
> You can make the same argument with any energy source - gasoline,
diesel,
> electricity, hydrogen, etc.  In all cases, it takes "more energy" to
produce
> it than it returns.  There are always inefficiencies in the
production,
> making the return less than 100%.  If there wasn't, then it would be a

> perpetual motion machine.  The secret is finding a cheap, renewable
fuel
> source, and transforming it into a product that can be transported and
> easily used by consumers.  If you can use natural gas, coal, or wood
(which
> isn't handy to use directly in a car) and a bushel of corn and create
a
> product that can be easily handled and burned in a car, then you have
> something.
>
> The alcohol plants here are making it for about $1.29/gallon.  That
includes
> the cost of the corn (which is fairly high here because of demand),
and the
> price of the natural gas (expensive) they use to make the product.
There
> are no government subsidies in that cost.  If it took so much energy
to make
> it, wouldn't it cost more?
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com
> [mailto:at-bounces at lists.antique-tractor.com] On Behalf Of Steve W.
> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 10:30 PM
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> Subject: Re: Alt fuels was Re: [AT] Gasoline $
>
> Real simple. Those third world countries have VERY CHEAP labor. Most
of
> the fuel they produce is made in small quantities by locals and then
> sold locally. In order to produce enough to fuel the current American
> "fleet" you would need to produce more alcohol than we have the
> materials for production. Also I don't know how you figure that
ethanol
> is so cheap. It isn't. Also it is a REAL mileage killer when run
> straight in an engine. You lose half your mileage running it. If you
add
> in ALL the costs of production for both Alcohol and for Bio-diesel you
> will also find out that it takes MORE energy to produce it than it
> returns, they are both net energy losers.
>
>
>
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