[Steam-engine] National Board Historic Boiler Committee

Beth 24port at accesstoledo.com
Tue Aug 17 19:20:50 PDT 2004


Hi Jeff,

Two other members of the committee include Frank Johnson from Perrysburg, OH
and Dennis Rupert of Hillsdale, MI.  For those who may not be familiar with
them, both are engine owners and have a good deal of common sense mixed with
a tremendous knowledge base.  They will represent us well.

I have passed Snow's comments onto them.  I'm sure they will address it in a
professional manner.

Frank also owns a nice Keck, but is in the middle of a major re-do like they
did to mine.  I would doubt it will be ready for '05, but one never knows.
If I feed them well enough, they might work faster, or slower.

Beth
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Detwiler" <jdetwiler at detwilerandassociates.com>
To: "Steam-engine mailing list" <steam-engine at lists.stationary-engine.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 11:09 AM
Subject: [Steam-engine] National Board Historic Boiler Committee


>
> I have been in contact over the last several months with several folks at
the NB after we first found Mr. Snow's planned presentation for their
quarterly meeting.  Richard Backus(IMA) and I have both expressed our
concerns(that Snow speaks of)as have many others.  The committee that has
been created has nine members on it.  Only two are NB employees(Mr. Snow & 1
other).  The other 7 are from the "trenches" so to speak, with Bruce
Babcock(you all know his excellent qualifications) being one; Steve Dunn, a
former Oklahoma Steam Threshers Board Member from Oklahoma and engine
owner/restorer; another steam engine owner/restorer from California, and
others who have extensive experience around these engines and boilers.
Their task is to review/discuss/revise Appendix C to bring it in line with
some of the current issues.  It is not meant and will not be a fishing
expedition to tighten the vise on engine owners.  The over-riding factor in
all of their plans is to promote a sensibl!
>  e inspection regimen, with the understanding that 99% of these boilers
are only operated less than 5 times a year.  One cannot argue with any
common sense that a boiler is going to deteriorate to any degree when it is
used on such a limited basis and is laid up and stored properly.  To worry
that "the sky is falling" would be a little extreme at this point.  The care
that is afforded these engines is far in excess of what it was 80 years ago,
and this should be our main thrust on which we proceed.  Of course we must
evaluate our boilers on a comprehensive basis, then repair or replace areas
that show thinning to the point of being unable to carry the working
pressures that we would like.  That is common sense.  I think some folks
just aren't willing to admit that their boiler needs repairs.  These are the
folks that I worry about.  At some point we all have to face reality if our
boiler is in fact in need of attention, and I think that that is what this
committee is charged!
>   with fostering.
>
> Our job is to inform these committee members of our ideas as to realistic
inspection criteria and maintain a steady input to them.  The NB does not
want to become the "inspector general" for historic boilers.  Their job is
to provide guidlines and recommendations for adoption or inclusion by other
governing bodies/states.
>
> We should be thankful that they haven't been as forceful and restrictive
as the FRA has been on the excursion steam locomotive industry.  I don't
think we'll see that kind of legislation come from this committee.
>
> Someone does need to inform the NB of their grave reporting error on the
alleged fatal accident from 1985/1970.  Someone with that information please
send it to Mr. Snow, and post their response here.
>
> On a final note, this weekend is American Threshermen in Pinckneyville,
IL.  We are having a National Keck Gonnerman meeting there to discuss the
2005 Reunion of the Keck to take place in P'ville in August '05.  We plan to
have 6 sequential serial numbered Kecks plus 5-10 others.  I don't think
there is any other manufacturer that can claim to have that many sequentials
still in operation.  If you are a Keck owner or have interest in Keck
Gonnerman, please contact me offline and I will give you more information.
I am also the unofficial historian of Keck Gonnerman engines, having the
records for almost 200 engines still in operation.
>
> Thanks for all the good information,
> Jeff Detwiler
> Board Member, Oklahoma Steam Threshermen
> Keck Gonnerman #1786
> Russell #15887
>
> --- Jeff Smith <steamenginesmitty at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I sold one of my engines this year for many different
> reasons and purchased a new 1/2 scale 65 case boiler
> that is to current ASME standards, but Dan's concern
> was one of the major deciding factors.  Time and
> storage were the biggest issues, I just don't have the
> time right now or the place to store a full size
> engine for a restoration.  Another deciding factor was
> it also needed a lot of repair to the boiler; to the
> point that I just wanted a new boiler from a
> cost/benefit standpoint.  In the end I decided against
> that and sold it because I was losing my storage space
> at the time and needed to find a place for it fast,
> and where it could have been stored was outside neat
> the ocean.  I just didn't want it outside near all of
> the salt spray so it found a new home with a man that
> has many other engines.
>
> I still have two other riveted boilers and one other
> ASME code welded boiler, but they are not on traction
> engines so I decided to go the 1/2 scale route.  I
> might be losing money someday on the two riveted
> boilers from some type of crackdown, but I am willing
> to take that chance because I like those engines.  I
> just wanted an engine that I MIGHT be able to take
> from state to state on vacation in the summer, but it
> appears that the days of honoring other state
> inspections in the states that I was planning to go to
> is a thing of the past.  So I can either not go, or
> get a bunch of inspections a year, but I just don't
> want the hassle of that nor all of those hydros so I
> am learning to go to shows and not have to operate
> something, but that is hard for me to do.
>
> I was at a show this past weekend in PA, and one of my
> father's old steam friends told me that he just sold
> all of his engines but one, and his comment was that
> he thinks that sometime soon all engines in public
> areas will require a new welded boiler.  That may be a
> bit extreme, but maybe not.  It sure took me by
> surprise though coming from him.  He lives in Maryland
> and he was tired of the hassle, so he kept one engine
> that he has that was purchased new and replaced 6
> months later with a gas tractor so the engine is like
> new, but he still doesn't take it anywhere now.
>
> Does anyone know why Willis Able sold all of his
> engines but a few?  He had 30 engines that could
> operate the last time I went to his place.  Going
> there was like going to a big candy store and now that
> is a thing of the past.  I can understand if he just
> got tired of PA and their views on historic boilers
> though and threw in the towel, he would have to go
> through inspections 30 times a year.  I can't even
> imagine the amount of work that must have been and my
> hat is off to him for all those years of dedication.
> I think that trying to be patient with the entire
> inspection process for 30 engines would have put me in
> a straight jacket........
>
> Dan, apparently you are not the only one with those
> thoughts though, the gentleman in MD and myself had
> the same concerns.  I am sure that many others have
> also, but so far we are the only ones that I know of
> that acted upon them, but we could be wrong.
>
> Jeff
>
> >I have been leaning to the
> > position that I should
> > plan on finding an engine that has a boiler in poor
> > condition and plan to
> > spend the money to build a new boiler to ASME code.
> > That way my investment
> > will not be lost due to tightening codes and a
> > National Board that may start
> > condemning historic boilers right and left in fear
> > of their own liability
> > and reputation at stake.
> >     Is there anyone with these same concerns or am I
> > being too pessimistic.
> > I currently live in a state that has absolutely no
> > inspections on historic
> > boilers but believe that it is just a matter of time
> > before all states adopt
> > Appendix C of the NBIC.
> >
> > Dan Donaldson
>
>
>
>
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