[AT] A-C Oil Filters

Sat Apr 10 11:51:49 PDT 2004

I was wondering that same thing Ron.  I made one of those tubes a few years
ago and while I made the opening pretty small I bet it is bigger than it
should be.

Charlie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Cook" <rlcook at pionet.net>
To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [AT] A-C Oil Filters

> This sounds exactly correct.  Does anyone know the size the orifice should
> be?  On my B Allis it is apparently too large, as the rag style filter
will
> produce more pressure being shown on the gauge than the paper style.  I
> need to close up the opening just a little I'm thinking.
>
> Ron Cook
> Salix, IA
>
>
> >     To clear up the question on the A-C oil filters it should
> >be known that there is a built in flow restrictor in the top of
> >the steel tube that the filter fits over. The top of this tube
> >is swaged down at the top for a calibrated restriction to
> >reduce the flow and keep good flow to the engine bearings.
> >     Some tractors have had this tube replaced by a straight
> >piece of tubing and not swaged thereby allowing too much oil to
> >flow through the filter. Some of them are rusted at the top
> >giving a larger hole.
> >     The proper name is not an oil filter, but a "sludge trap".
> >
> >                         Gene
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Robert L. Holtzer <rholtzer at earthlink.net>
> >To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> ><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> >Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 10:53 AM
> >Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
> >
> >
> >: These old non-full flow systems usually have a restriction
> >somewhere in the
> >: flow path -- they didn't depend on the filter for creating
> >pressure to the
> >: engine.  At least this has been the case in several systems
> >I've seen over
> >: the years.  For example, the old flat-head Fords had a
> >drilled bolt that
> >: metered flow through the by-pass line.  Farmall has a
> >metering hole in the
> >: central bolt that holds the filter housing in place.   On the
> >other hand,
> >: I've had little exposure to "rag" filter systems -- are they
> >different?  I
> >: will look more closely at the Cletrac next time I change the
> >filter.  It
> >: has a cloth filter that fits over a post as I recall.
> >:
> >: Bob Holtzer
> >:
> >: At 10:32 AM 4/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> >: >Rob,  I'm starting to understand your arguement.  IF the
> >flow to the mains
> >: >comes off of the pump ahead of the filter like the flow to
> >the valve train
> >: >does ( I can't find that in the book and haven't gone out
> >and checked mine
> >: >over) then ALL of the oil that drains out of the filter goes
> >directly to the
> >: >sump.  IF that is the case then I agree that the restriction
> >caused by the
> >: >rag filter prevents too much oil from flowing back to the
> >sump and keeps
> >: >part of the flow under presure and going to the engine
> >bearings.
> >: >
> >: >I was thinking that the flow to the bearings came off the
> >filter outlet but
> >: >maybe not.
> >: >
> >: >Charlie
> >: >----- Original Message -----
> >: >From: "charlie hill" <chill8 at cox.net>
> >: >To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
> ><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> >: >Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 3:00 AM
> >: >Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
> >: >
> >: >
> >: > > Rob,  I wasn't trying to say you were wrong.  Just trying
> >to understand
> >: >what
> >: > > you were saying.  I'm still not sure I understand how
> >this works.  I'm
> >: >going
> >: > > to have to look at the oil piping a bit more I guess.
> >BTW I only use the
> >: > > real rag stuffed filters anyway.
> >: > >
> >: > > Charlie
> >: > > ----- Original Message -----
> >: > > From: "Rob Wilson" <rowilson at infinet.com>
> >: > > To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
> >: ><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> >: > > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 1:01 AM
> >: > > Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
> >: > >
> >: > >
> >: > > > Charlie,
> >: > > >   All the information I have tells me that these
> >engines are bypass
> >: > > filtered
> >: > > > engines and if the filter has no backpressure then all
> >the oil goes to
> >: >the
> >: > > > filter and not the engine. Here's a quote from one of
> >the guys on the
> >: >A-C
> >: > > > page. I personally don't care what you or anyone else
> >wants to use as
> >: > > > a filter to each his own. I'm merely offering
> >information to save you a
> >: > > > few bucks.
> >: > > >
> >: > > >
> >: > > > The B (and some others like it) has a bypass type of
> >lubrication system.
> >: > > It
> >: > > > is NOT like the typical full flow systems used on
> >modern automobiles.
> >: >With
> >: > > a
> >: > > > bypass system, about 15% (at least on the B) of the oil
> >pump flow is
> >: >sent
> >: > > > directly to the sump via the oil filter. That 15% does
> >not go to the
> >: > > > bearings. There are too basic parallel paths to the
> >sump from the pump.
> >: > > One
> >: > > > is through the bearings and the other is through the
> >filter, assuming
> >: >the
> >: > > > relief valve is not discharging. Depending on the
> >details of the
> >: > > > restrictions in the flow path through the filter, the
> >filter resistance
> >: > > > itself can have an effect on the flow quantity through
> >this bypass path.
> >: > > If
> >: > > > the filter resistance is less than designed for by the
> >OEM (Allis
> >: > > Chalmers),
> >: > > > then a greater flow will be bypassed to the sump than
> >originally
> >: >intended.
> >: > > > Since the pump flow is constant for any given engine
> >speed, that means
> >: > > less
> >: > > > will be sent to the bearings. This situation results in
> >a lower oil
> >: > > pressure
> >: > > > being observed at the pump discharge and recorded by
> >the pressure gage.
> >: > > That
> >: > > > is the exactly the case with the newer design NAPA 1101
> >filter. It has a
> >: > > > lower filter resistance than AC designed for and is
> >much more like a
> >: > > > low-resistance full flow filter that one would see on
> >an automobile.
> >: >Dumb
> >: > > > design change by WIX (manufacturer of filters marketed
> >under the NAPA
> >: > > brand
> >: > > > name).
> >: > > >
> >: > > > Rob
> >: > > >
> >: > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >: > > > From: "charlie hill" <chill8 at cox.net>
> >: > > > To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
> >: > > <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> >: > > > Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 4:15 PM
> >: > > > Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
> >: > > >
> >: > > >
> >: > > > > Rob,  I have a reproduction of a B manual on my desk
> >right now.  The
> >: >oil
> >: > > > > pump has a presure regulator.  The line from the pump
> >has a Tee in it
> >: > > > before
> >: > > > > it gets to the filter.  One outlet of the tee goes to
> >the valve train,
> >: > > the
> >: > > > > other goes to the filter housing where the oil is
> >pumped through the
> >: > > > center
> >: > > > > tube to the top inside of the filter where it is
> >forced down through
> >: >the
> >: > > > > rags and then flows out to the block and the mains.
> >I don't
> >: >understand
> >: > > > how
> >: > > > > restricting the oil flow ahead of the filter can
> >create more oil
> >: >presure
> >: > > > to
> >: > > > > the mains.
> >: > > > >
> >: > > > > Charlie
> >: > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >: > > > > From: "Rob Wilson" <rowilson at infinet.com>
> >: > > > > To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
> >: > > > <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> >: > > > > Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 11:40 AM
> >: > > > > Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
> >: > > > >
> >: > > > >
> >: > > > > > Hi Charlie,
> >: > > > > >  The reason for the rag filled filters is not a
> >technology
> >: > > > > > issue but a design issue. The A-C engines need back
> >pressure
> >: > > > > > created by the filter to push oil to the mains.
> >Without this
> >: > > > > > the oil bypasses the mains and gets filtered over
> >and over.
> >: > > > > > As for WIX paper technology I believe they were one
> >of the
> >: > > > > > first to use the paper element since they started
> >in 1939.
> >: > > > > > They were a very innovative company.
> >: > > > > >
> >: > > > > > Rob
> >: > > > > >
> >: > > > > > > Hi Rob.  I won't argue that point with you as I
> >don't know
> >: >anything
> >: > > > > > about
> >: > > > > > > the Wix/AC filter failures BUT one thing I will
> >bet you is this.
> >: > > > > > > If paper filter technology had been available in
> >1940 AC would
> >: >have
> >: > > > > > never
> >: > > > > > > used those rag packed filters.
> >: > > > > >
> >: > > > > >
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