[AT] A-C Oil Filters

charlie hill chill8 at cox.net
Sat Apr 10 11:21:06 PDT 2004 

Ah another piece of the puzzle.  I hadn't thought about that Gene but the
correct flow tube would  certainly take care of too much oil going back to
the sump.

Charlie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gene Dotson" <gdotsly at loganrec.com>
To: "Antique tractor email discussion group" <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 1:15 PM
Subject: [AT] A-C Oil Filters


>     To clear up the question on the A-C oil filters it should
> be known that there is a built in flow restrictor in the top of
> the steel tube that the filter fits over. The top of this tube
> is swaged down at the top for a calibrated restriction to
> reduce the flow and keep good flow to the engine bearings.
>     Some tractors have had this tube replaced by a straight
> piece of tubing and not swaged thereby allowing too much oil to
> flow through the filter. Some of them are rusted at the top
> giving a larger hole.
>     The proper name is not an oil filter, but a "sludge trap".
>
>                         Gene
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Robert L. Holtzer <rholtzer at earthlink.net>
> To: Antique tractor email discussion group
> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 10:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
>
>
> : These old non-full flow systems usually have a restriction
> somewhere in the
> : flow path -- they didn't depend on the filter for creating
> pressure to the
> : engine.  At least this has been the case in several systems
> I've seen over
> : the years.  For example, the old flat-head Fords had a
> drilled bolt that
> : metered flow through the by-pass line.  Farmall has a
> metering hole in the
> : central bolt that holds the filter housing in place.   On the
> other hand,
> : I've had little exposure to "rag" filter systems -- are they
> different?  I
> : will look more closely at the Cletrac next time I change the
> filter.  It
> : has a cloth filter that fits over a post as I recall.
> :
> : Bob Holtzer
> :
> : At 10:32 AM 4/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> : >Rob,  I'm starting to understand your arguement.  IF the
> flow to the mains
> : >comes off of the pump ahead of the filter like the flow to
> the valve train
> : >does ( I can't find that in the book and haven't gone out
> and checked mine
> : >over) then ALL of the oil that drains out of the filter goes
> directly to the
> : >sump.  IF that is the case then I agree that the restriction
> caused by the
> : >rag filter prevents too much oil from flowing back to the
> sump and keeps
> : >part of the flow under presure and going to the engine
> bearings.
> : >
> : >I was thinking that the flow to the bearings came off the
> filter outlet but
> : >maybe not.
> : >
> : >Charlie
> : >----- Original Message -----
> : >From: "charlie hill" <chill8 at cox.net>
> : >To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
> <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> : >Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 3:00 AM
> : >Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
> : >
> : >
> : > > Rob,  I wasn't trying to say you were wrong.  Just trying
> to understand
> : >what
> : > > you were saying.  I'm still not sure I understand how
> this works.  I'm
> : >going
> : > > to have to look at the oil piping a bit more I guess.
> BTW I only use the
> : > > real rag stuffed filters anyway.
> : > >
> : > > Charlie
> : > > ----- Original Message -----
> : > > From: "Rob Wilson" <rowilson at infinet.com>
> : > > To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
> : ><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> : > > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 1:01 AM
> : > > Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
> : > >
> : > >
> : > > > Charlie,
> : > > >   All the information I have tells me that these
> engines are bypass
> : > > filtered
> : > > > engines and if the filter has no backpressure then all
> the oil goes to
> : >the
> : > > > filter and not the engine. Here's a quote from one of
> the guys on the
> : >A-C
> : > > > page. I personally don't care what you or anyone else
> wants to use as
> : > > > a filter to each his own. I'm merely offering
> information to save you a
> : > > > few bucks.
> : > > >
> : > > >
> : > > > The B (and some others like it) has a bypass type of
> lubrication system.
> : > > It
> : > > > is NOT like the typical full flow systems used on
> modern automobiles.
> : >With
> : > > a
> : > > > bypass system, about 15% (at least on the B) of the oil
> pump flow is
> : >sent
> : > > > directly to the sump via the oil filter. That 15% does
> not go to the
> : > > > bearings. There are too basic parallel paths to the
> sump from the pump.
> : > > One
> : > > > is through the bearings and the other is through the
> filter, assuming
> : >the
> : > > > relief valve is not discharging. Depending on the
> details of the
> : > > > restrictions in the flow path through the filter, the
> filter resistance
> : > > > itself can have an effect on the flow quantity through
> this bypass path.
> : > > If
> : > > > the filter resistance is less than designed for by the
> OEM (Allis
> : > > Chalmers),
> : > > > then a greater flow will be bypassed to the sump than
> originally
> : >intended.
> : > > > Since the pump flow is constant for any given engine
> speed, that means
> : > > less
> : > > > will be sent to the bearings. This situation results in
> a lower oil
> : > > pressure
> : > > > being observed at the pump discharge and recorded by
> the pressure gage.
> : > > That
> : > > > is the exactly the case with the newer design NAPA 1101
> filter. It has a
> : > > > lower filter resistance than AC designed for and is
> much more like a
> : > > > low-resistance full flow filter that one would see on
> an automobile.
> : >Dumb
> : > > > design change by WIX (manufacturer of filters marketed
> under the NAPA
> : > > brand
> : > > > name).
> : > > >
> : > > > Rob
> : > > >
> : > > > ----- Original Message -----
> : > > > From: "charlie hill" <chill8 at cox.net>
> : > > > To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
> : > > <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> : > > > Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 4:15 PM
> : > > > Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
> : > > >
> : > > >
> : > > > > Rob,  I have a reproduction of a B manual on my desk
> right now.  The
> : >oil
> : > > > > pump has a presure regulator.  The line from the pump
> has a Tee in it
> : > > > before
> : > > > > it gets to the filter.  One outlet of the tee goes to
> the valve train,
> : > > the
> : > > > > other goes to the filter housing where the oil is
> pumped through the
> : > > > center
> : > > > > tube to the top inside of the filter where it is
> forced down through
> : >the
> : > > > > rags and then flows out to the block and the mains.
> I don't
> : >understand
> : > > > how
> : > > > > restricting the oil flow ahead of the filter can
> create more oil
> : >presure
> : > > > to
> : > > > > the mains.
> : > > > >
> : > > > > Charlie
> : > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> : > > > > From: "Rob Wilson" <rowilson at infinet.com>
> : > > > > To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
> : > > > <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
> : > > > > Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 11:40 AM
> : > > > > Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
> : > > > >
> : > > > >
> : > > > > > Hi Charlie,
> : > > > > >  The reason for the rag filled filters is not a
> technology
> : > > > > > issue but a design issue. The A-C engines need back
> pressure
> : > > > > > created by the filter to push oil to the mains.
> Without this
> : > > > > > the oil bypasses the mains and gets filtered over
> and over.
> : > > > > > As for WIX paper technology I believe they were one
> of the
> : > > > > > first to use the paper element since they started
> in 1939.
> : > > > > > They were a very innovative company.
> : > > > > >
> : > > > > > Rob
> : > > > > >
> : > > > > > > Hi Rob.  I won't argue that point with you as I
> don't know
> : >anything
> : > > > > > about
> : > > > > > > the Wix/AC filter failures BUT one thing I will
> bet you is this.
> : > > > > > > If paper filter technology had been available in
> 1940 AC would
> : >have
> : > > > > > never
> : > > > > > > used those rag packed filters.
> : > > > > >
> : > > > > >
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