[AT] A-C Oil Filters

[Ron Cook]

This sounds exactly correct.  Does anyone know the size the orifice should 
be?  On my B Allis it is apparently too large, as the rag style filter will 
produce more pressure being shown on the gauge than the paper style.  I 
need to close up the opening just a little I'm thinking.

Ron Cook
Salix, IA


>     To clear up the question on the A-C oil filters it should
>be known that there is a built in flow restrictor in the top of
>the steel tube that the filter fits over. The top of this tube
>is swaged down at the top for a calibrated restriction to
>reduce the flow and keep good flow to the engine bearings.
>     Some tractors have had this tube replaced by a straight
>piece of tubing and not swaged thereby allowing too much oil to
>flow through the filter. Some of them are rusted at the top
>giving a larger hole.
>     The proper name is not an oil filter, but a "sludge trap".
>
>                         Gene
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robert L. Holtzer <rholtzer at earthlink.net>
>To: Antique tractor email discussion group
><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 10:53 AM
>Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
>
>
>: These old non-full flow systems usually have a restriction
>somewhere in the
>: flow path -- they didn't depend on the filter for creating
>pressure to the
>: engine.  At least this has been the case in several systems
>I've seen over
>: the years.  For example, the old flat-head Fords had a
>drilled bolt that
>: metered flow through the by-pass line.  Farmall has a
>metering hole in the
>: central bolt that holds the filter housing in place.   On the
>other hand,
>: I've had little exposure to "rag" filter systems -- are they
>different?  I
>: will look more closely at the Cletrac next time I change the
>filter.  It
>: has a cloth filter that fits over a post as I recall.
>:
>: Bob Holtzer
>:
>: At 10:32 AM 4/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>: >Rob,  I'm starting to understand your arguement.  IF the
>flow to the mains
>: >comes off of the pump ahead of the filter like the flow to
>the valve train
>: >does ( I can't find that in the book and haven't gone out
>and checked mine
>: >over) then ALL of the oil that drains out of the filter goes
>directly to the
>: >sump.  IF that is the case then I agree that the restriction
>caused by the
>: >rag filter prevents too much oil from flowing back to the
>sump and keeps
>: >part of the flow under presure and going to the engine
>bearings.
>: >
>: >I was thinking that the flow to the bearings came off the
>filter outlet but
>: >maybe not.
>: >
>: >Charlie
>: >----- Original Message -----
>: >From: "charlie hill" <chill8 at cox.net>
>: >To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>: >Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 3:00 AM
>: >Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
>: >
>: >
>: > > Rob,  I wasn't trying to say you were wrong.  Just trying
>to understand
>: >what
>: > > you were saying.  I'm still not sure I understand how
>this works.  I'm
>: >going
>: > > to have to look at the oil piping a bit more I guess.
>BTW I only use the
>: > > real rag stuffed filters anyway.
>: > >
>: > > Charlie
>: > > ----- Original Message -----
>: > > From: "Rob Wilson" <rowilson at infinet.com>
>: > > To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
>: ><at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>: > > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 1:01 AM
>: > > Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
>: > >
>: > >
>: > > > Charlie,
>: > > >   All the information I have tells me that these
>engines are bypass
>: > > filtered
>: > > > engines and if the filter has no backpressure then all
>the oil goes to
>: >the
>: > > > filter and not the engine. Here's a quote from one of
>the guys on the
>: >A-C
>: > > > page. I personally don't care what you or anyone else
>wants to use as
>: > > > a filter to each his own. I'm merely offering
>information to save you a
>: > > > few bucks.
>: > > >
>: > > >
>: > > > The B (and some others like it) has a bypass type of
>lubrication system.
>: > > It
>: > > > is NOT like the typical full flow systems used on
>modern automobiles.
>: >With
>: > > a
>: > > > bypass system, about 15% (at least on the B) of the oil
>pump flow is
>: >sent
>: > > > directly to the sump via the oil filter. That 15% does
>not go to the
>: > > > bearings. There are too basic parallel paths to the
>sump from the pump.
>: > > One
>: > > > is through the bearings and the other is through the
>filter, assuming
>: >the
>: > > > relief valve is not discharging. Depending on the
>details of the
>: > > > restrictions in the flow path through the filter, the
>filter resistance
>: > > > itself can have an effect on the flow quantity through
>this bypass path.
>: > > If
>: > > > the filter resistance is less than designed for by the
>OEM (Allis
>: > > Chalmers),
>: > > > then a greater flow will be bypassed to the sump than
>originally
>: >intended.
>: > > > Since the pump flow is constant for any given engine
>speed, that means
>: > > less
>: > > > will be sent to the bearings. This situation results in
>a lower oil
>: > > pressure
>: > > > being observed at the pump discharge and recorded by
>the pressure gage.
>: > > That
>: > > > is the exactly the case with the newer design NAPA 1101
>filter. It has a
>: > > > lower filter resistance than AC designed for and is
>much more like a
>: > > > low-resistance full flow filter that one would see on
>an automobile.
>: >Dumb
>: > > > design change by WIX (manufacturer of filters marketed
>under the NAPA
>: > > brand
>: > > > name).
>: > > >
>: > > > Rob
>: > > >
>: > > > ----- Original Message -----
>: > > > From: "charlie hill" <chill8 at cox.net>
>: > > > To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
>: > > <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>: > > > Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 4:15 PM
>: > > > Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
>: > > >
>: > > >
>: > > > > Rob,  I have a reproduction of a B manual on my desk
>right now.  The
>: >oil
>: > > > > pump has a presure regulator.  The line from the pump
>has a Tee in it
>: > > > before
>: > > > > it gets to the filter.  One outlet of the tee goes to
>the valve train,
>: > > the
>: > > > > other goes to the filter housing where the oil is
>pumped through the
>: > > > center
>: > > > > tube to the top inside of the filter where it is
>forced down through
>: >the
>: > > > > rags and then flows out to the block and the mains.
>I don't
>: >understand
>: > > > how
>: > > > > restricting the oil flow ahead of the filter can
>create more oil
>: >presure
>: > > > to
>: > > > > the mains.
>: > > > >
>: > > > > Charlie
>: > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>: > > > > From: "Rob Wilson" <rowilson at infinet.com>
>: > > > > To: "Antique tractor email discussion group"
>: > > > <at at lists.antique-tractor.com>
>: > > > > Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 11:40 AM
>: > > > > Subject: Re: [AT] Dodge diesel oil filter number
>: > > > >
>: > > > >
>: > > > > > Hi Charlie,
>: > > > > >  The reason for the rag filled filters is not a
>technology
>: > > > > > issue but a design issue. The A-C engines need back
>pressure
>: > > > > > created by the filter to push oil to the mains.
>Without this
>: > > > > > the oil bypasses the mains and gets filtered over
>and over.
>: > > > > > As for WIX paper technology I believe they were one
>of the
>: > > > > > first to use the paper element since they started
>in 1939.
>: > > > > > They were a very innovative company.
>: > > > > >
>: > > > > > Rob
>: > > > > >
>: > > > > > > Hi Rob.  I won't argue that point with you as I
>don't know
>: >anything
>: > > > > > about
>: > > > > > > the Wix/AC filter failures BUT one thing I will
>bet you is this.
>: > > > > > > If paper filter technology had been available in
>1940 AC would
>: >have
>: > > > > > never
>: > > > > > > used those rag packed filters.
>: > > > > >
>: > > > > >
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